Dear "benjamin" if this is your name (benjayk?) if the unsigned text is
yours, of course:
I believe this post is not 'joining' the chorus of the debate. Or is it?
Benjayk wrote:
"*Consciousness is simply a given"*
OK, if you just disclose ANYTHING about it as you formulate that 'given'.
Your(?) logic seems alright that if it is 'originated' upon numbers then the
* 'consciousness-based' *numbers are a consequence of a consequence (or
prerequisite to a prerequisite).
 I am not decrying the 'origin' of consciousness, rather its entire concept
- what it may contain, include, act with, by, for, result in, - or else we
may not even know about today..
Then I may stipulate about an origin for it.

* ---"EXISTS?"---* as WHAT?
I volunteered on many discussion lists a defining generalization:* response
to relations, *
(originally: *to information*, which turned out to be a loose cannon). In
such general view it is not restricted to animates, in-animates, physical
objects, ideas, or more, since the 'relations' are quite ubiquitous even
beyond the limited circle of our knowledge. In such sense:* it exists*,
Not (according to me) in *THOSE *systems, but everywhere.
 John M

(PS please excuse me if I pond on open doors in a discussion the ~100 long
posts of which I barely studied. I wanted to keep out and just could not
control my mouse. JM)

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 5:14 PM, benjayk <>wrote:

> Frankly I am a bit tired of this debate (to some extent debating in
> general),
> so I will not respond in detail any time soon (if at all). Don't take it as
> total disinterest, I found our exchange very interesting, I am just not in
> the mood at the moment to discuss complex topics at length.

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >
> > Then computer science provides a theory of consciousness, and explains
> how
> > consciousness emerges from numbers,
> How can consciousness be shown to emerge from numbers when it is already
> assumed at the start?
> It's a bit like assuming A, and because B->A is true if A is true, we can
> claim for any B that B is the reason that A true.
> Consciousness is simply a given. Every "explanation" of it will just
> express
> what it is and will not determine its origin, as its origin would need to
> be
> independent of it / prior to it, but could never be known to be prior to
> it,
> as this would already require consciousness.
> The only question is what systems are able to express that consciousness
> exists, and what place consciousness has in those systems.
> Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And in that sense, comp provides, I think, the first coherent
> >>>>> picture of
> >>>>> almost everything, from God (oops!) to qualia, quanta included, and
> >>>>> this by assuming only seven arithmetical axioms.
> >>>> I tend to agree. But it's coherent picture of everything includes
> >>>> the
> >>>> possibility of infinitely many more powerful theories. Theoretically
> >>>> it may
> >>>> be possible to represent every such theory with arithmetic - but
> >>>> then we can
> >>>> represent every arithmetical statement with just one symbol and an
> >>>> encoding
> >>>> scheme, still we wouldn't call "." a theory of everything.
> >>>> So it's not THE theory of everything, but *a* theory of everything.
> >>>
> >>> Not really. Once you assume comp, the numbers (or equivalent) are
> >>> enough, and very simple (despite mysterious).
> >> They are enough, but they are not the only way to make a theory of
> >> everything. As you say, we can use everything as powerful as
> >> numbers, so
> >> there is an infinity of different formulations of theories of
> >> everything.
> >
> > For any theory, you have infinities of equivalent formulations. This
> > is not a defect. What is amazing is that they can be very different
> > (like cellular automata, LISP, addition+multiplication on natural
> > numbers, quantum topology, billiard balls, etc.
> I agree. It's just that in my view the fact that they can be very different
> makes them ultimately different theories, only theories about the same
> thing. Different theories may explain the same thing, but in practice, they
> may vary in their efficiency to explain it, so it makes sense to treat them
> as different theories.
> In theory, even one symbol can represent every statement in any language,
> but still it's not as powerful as the language it represents.
> Similarily if you use just natural numbers as a TOE, you won't be able to
> directly express important concepts like dimensionality.
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