On 8/21/2012 9:40 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
Hi Bruno,
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 19 Aug 2012, at 21:14, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 18 Aug 2012, at 17:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:46, Roger wrote:
But humans are not entirely governed from outside, they
have their own agendas.
We have a top level agenda: maximise self-satisfaction,
and minimize self-dissatisfaction. This can be
programmed in very few lines, but needs a very long time
to bring sophisticated being like us.
But doesn't concept or computation of "self" makes this
statement on self's agenda much less clear than it looks?
Is "self" some conceptual cartoon or program, like
individual isolated humanist "bag-of-flesh + brain soup", a
consumer in a market with bank account, a career, set of
personal experiences, a class idea, is it a tribal idea, or
is it some esoteric notion of "Gaian world soul", a family
notion etc.?
It is more like a control structure. The self is really
defined by the ability of some program to refer to their own
code, even in the course of a computation, like an amoeba can
build another similar amoeba. Or like when you look into a
mirror and recognize yourself. It is the third person self,
like in "I have two legs". Then the math shows that a non
nameable deeper self is attached with it, and obeys a
different logic (the soul).
Satisfying oneself, in nature, is mainly drinking when
thirsty, eating when hungry, mating, peeing, etc.
But with its big neocortex, the man has made things more
complex. By incompleteness (or akin) he is never fully
satisfied, want more, get addicted, refer to authorities, and
then to forget how happiness is easy.
Convincing, but I am less sure. Particularly because 1p
perspective has apparently many selves (the list I mentioned:
"bag of flesh, consumer, career, family, citizen etc.")
"bag" of flesh is more 3p than 1p. The 1p is really the unique
<here and now> current feeling/subjective experience. Consumer,
family, career, citizen, ... are 3p attributes, it seems to me.
During and after sports: "I" feel like a single bag of flesh needing
replenishment of fluids, minerals etc.
During good improvisation, dance, or lovemaking: "I" feels closer to
"woman, man" playing the universe, vanishing in climaxes and orgasm,
similar to Salvia or Ecodelic vanishing/minimizing of 1p.
Hi!
Could the effect of Salvia be that it suppresses most the internal
oral narrative part of the brain's self-modeling function but not all of
the proprioceptive parts? This would cause a sense of "loss of self"...
--
Onward!
Stephen
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
~ Francis Bacon
During precious family moment: "I" feels secondary to doing what's
best for all. Similarly, working with great people, or surfing the
net, 'I" feels like a tiny node in sort of Vernadsky "Noosphere",
although perhaps broader than limiting to human thought operations,
than de Chardin and Vernadsky suggest, including plants or other kinds
of entity.
During passport control: "I" feels like isolated machine/organism with
bizarre designation document, as Heidegger put it in /Being in Time/,
"thrown into a world against our will" (we finally don't know, of
course... but 1p feels this), in an ocean of alien machines/organisms.
Even though these are 3p attributes as described here. The qualia of
these situations, operations of consciousness are quite different to
going to bathroom. Empathy, taken as "I understand person x, because I
am or feel to be person x on some level. "I" knows what that is like."
At moment of deep insight, astronaut Mitchell of Apollo 14 has brief
moment to relax:
/Then looking beyond the earth itself to the magnificense of the
larger scene, there was a startling recognition that the nature of the
universe was not as I had been taught. My understanding of the
separate distinctness and relative independence of movement of those
cosmic bodies was shattered... ubiquitous harmony.
/Here Mitchell apparently forgets "egoic" 1p. In moments of experience
of this kind of insight, realizing how wrong 1p was, it is perturbed
and apparently reconstituted after the insight has been digested somehow.
There are countless other situations in which 1p feels 1p of other
organism/machine, like seeing somebody hurt, or like being more "we"
with close relations, or like 3p observing herself/himself in a mirror
as you say, or complete dissolution of 1p as described above.
This might look fuzzy, in that its hard to imagine genuinely leaving
1p interface. But more Salvia, sex, space travels, and finally death
might convince that boundaries are less clear; in any case these
distinctions are not merely pure semantics of subjective perspective;
they govern our actions quite concretely 1p morphing into some 3p
notion of "respectable citizen" during a job interview. Incommunicable
1p truth is shareable when reasoning is shut down. Not just in trance
modes of ecstasy, but looking into somebody's eyes in the deathbed,
and crying even though 1p will not die and this death will not impact
1p biological functions or survival.
This all to offer possibility that 1p to 3p distinctions are more like
breathing membrane and less like totally fixed boundary.
and the distinction between "self" and "other" is subject to
transformation.
How could that be? Is not "I am my (1p)- self" tautological? Our
memory, character, personality, name, ...can change, but not the
"1-I". Indeed that participate to the idea that there is only one
1-I in the entire reality. One or two perhaps.
That's the heart of problem I'm getting at. One or two or three or...
Sometimes boundaries are insurmountable and sometimes they
vanish. Time influences this perhaps.
But according to you, building on incompleteness, if we
forget/ignore Gödel and comp enough, happiness is easier :) This
is not good marketing.
I did not say that, on the contrary. Gödel can help to grasp the
roots of our perpetual non satisfaction. If the human were using
the neo-cortext for Gödel, that would be OK. I was alluding of the
the use of the neo-cortex in the projection that we do on
projection that other could do, which can give too much importance
of the "little ego", when people are no more pleased by buying a
car and driving if the car does not impress enough the neighbors,
or when a child feels the need to attract all the time the
parent's attention to feel to exist, etc. It is a complex
phenomenon, and it might be abnormally complex for the urban humans.
Bruno
Yes, of course. That's beautiful... I was merely joking badly ;)
m
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