On 06 Sep 2012, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/6/2012 11:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Consciousness does not arise. It is not in space, nor in time. Its local content, obtained by differentiation, internally can refer to time and space,

Even if it is not *in* spacetime, my consciousness seems to depend on some particular localized matter in spacetime.

Seeming can be wrong. Only the content of consciousness depends on the particular matter localized in space-time.





but that's particular content of an atemporal consciousness.

An atemporal consciousness sounds like a contradiction in terms.

I agree. I don't use that in the reasoning. It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness. But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes consciousness a bit more "primitive" than I thought indeed.



If we rely on our intuitive introspection to know what consciousness is (as you often say) we can't then just throw away that insight and say consciousness is something else.

Yes. That is why such an insight requires "altered state of consciousness". I agree it is weird, but it makes sense if we agree to declare non Löbian machine already conscious.

I have no certainty at all in this matter. The experiences have just added one more doubt, on the link between subjective time and consciousness. I would have thought that by losing Löbianity, you loose consciousness, but it seems that is not the case. We need more data and reports to better figure out what happens.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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