On 07 Sep 2012, at 13:24, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and
experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness
and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic
examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p
logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate
being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have
believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a
contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness.
But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the
universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be
a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This
makes consciousness a bit more "primitive" than I thought indeed.
Dear Bruno,
Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being
conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware
of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal
narrative (of external events) silent?
Unfortunately I cannot explain. In that state the notion of
environment does not make sense, and there are no narrative possible,
as you don't even know what is language, words, persons, ... It might
be like being a two days old embryo. You are conscious, and that's
all. You are not conscious of something, just conscious, and nothing
else exists or make sense.
I have always suspected that "subjective time might be a result
of self-consciousness" but have not had any way of discussing the
idea coherently. If we stipulate that "subjective time" is a form of
noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in
one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-
consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to
me).
OK. Here Bp & p is nice as it provides simultaneously a theory of the
first person logic, and a temporal logic, so the idea of time might be
a product of the self. But consciousness might still be something
deeper.
Bruno
I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish
but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion.
--
Onward!
Stephen
http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
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