On 07 Sep 2012, at 13:24, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness. But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes consciousness a bit more "primitive" than I thought indeed.
Dear Bruno,

Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent?

Unfortunately I cannot explain. In that state the notion of environment does not make sense, and there are no narrative possible, as you don't even know what is language, words, persons, ... It might be like being a two days old embryo. You are conscious, and that's all. You are not conscious of something, just conscious, and nothing else exists or make sense.




I have always suspected that "subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness" but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that "subjective time" is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self- consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me).

OK. Here Bp & p is nice as it provides simultaneously a theory of the first person logic, and a temporal logic, so the idea of time might be a product of the self. But consciousness might still be something deeper.

Bruno


I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion.

--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html


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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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