On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness. But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes consciousness a bit more "primitive" than I thought indeed.
Dear Bruno,

Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent?

I have always suspected that "subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness" but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that "subjective time" is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion.




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