On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and
experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and
subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies
(S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am
open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in
a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without
living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual
mundane state of consciousness.
But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the
universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a
result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes
consciousness a bit more "primitive" than I thought indeed.
Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being
conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware of
any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of
external events) silent?
I have always suspected that "subjective time might be a result of
self-consciousness" but have not had any way of discussing the idea
coherently. If we stipulate that "subjective time" is a form of noticing
that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's
environment, then this would fall into being a result of
self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to
me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish
but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at