On 9/20/2012 1:16 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:26:07 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:

    On 20 Sep 2012, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote:

    > Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp.
    > If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of
    > physics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universal
    > machines using only empty space?

    You are quite quick here, but have a good insight, as comp makes
    non clonable, indeterministic in the details, and plausibly Turing
    universal, as QM confirms. The 0-body problem (the quantum vacuum) is
    already Turing universal (I think). For classical physics you need
    three bodies at least).

What about an ideal vacuum? Just lengths multiplying and adding enumerated bundles of lengths. No quantum.

Do you mean like a measure with nothing to rule on? Or a nothing without a measure?

    > Length can be quantified, so why can't we just use millimeters or
    > Planck lengths as the basis for our enumeration, addition, and
    > multiplication and directly program from our mind to space?

    Who we? In the universe nearby it costs a lot of energy/money/time to
    handle matter already gigantic compared to the Planck length.

    Or are you suggesting we are already simulated by the quantum vacuum.
    Very plausible, but comp asks for justifying this in arithmetic.

I'm saying that whatever program we access when we choose what we think about should be able to run just as easily in space as it does through the brain. I should be able to pick an area of my house and leave a bunch of memories there and then come back to them later just be occupying the same space. That's if we define space as relative to my house and not the rotating planet, revolving sun, etc.

So it sounds like you are not opposed to this idea of computation with no resources whatsoever besides space, provided that it could be justified arithmetically (which I don't understand why it wouldn't be. how does comp know if it's running on matter or space?)

    Space is the only resource needed.

    > Of course, it would be hard to know where it was because we
    would be
    > constantly flying away from a space that was anchored to an
    > position independent of Earth, the solar system, Milky Way, etc,
    > that shouldn't matter anyhow since whatever method we use to
    > directly program in empty space with our minds should also give us
    > access to the results of the computations.


I mean if I could stand completely still then the planet would fly off from under my feet and I would be left standing exactly where I was with the Earth revolving past me at 107,000 km/hr. I would occupy the same space while the Earth, Sun, and galaxy sweep away from me.

If instead of me, it was memories I had stashed away in space, then my body would be soon separated from the absolute position that I had placed them. It shouldn't matter though, since by the same method of thinking numbers into space, I should be able to retrieve them too, regardless of the distance between my body and the numbers.

    > What do you think? Just as wafers of silicon glass could in theory
    > be functionally identical to a living brain, wouldn't it be equally
    > prejudiced to say that empty space isn't good enough to host the
    > computations of silicon?

    Empty space, in any turing universal theory, is equivalent with
    universal dovetailing. It is a trivial theory, as when we assume
    the space and belief in spaces have to be justified through number
    "dreams" statistics.

So you are saying yes to the space doctor?

    YES! I do! Over and over and over and over!

    The advantage of comp is that we can use math and more easily reason
    clearly. We can formulate key parts of the mind body problem

I don't question that, and I think that it may ultimately be the only way of engineering mind body solutions - but I still think that if we really want to know the truth about mind body, we can only find that in the un-numbered, un-named meta-juxtapostions of experienced sense.

    And computationalists are cool as they don't think twice before
    the restaurant menu to the puppet who asks politely. They don't judge
    people from their religion, skin color, clothes, or if made of wood,
    or metal or flesh, as long as they behave respectfully of course.

I can behave respectfully to a puppet too, but I feel hypocritical because I wouldn't change places with them for any reason.

    How would you know that it happened?




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