On 9/21/2012 11:05 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Sep 21, 2012, at 6:55 AM, "Stephen P. King" <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:

On 9/21/2012 1:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:

    On 9/20/2012 11:48 AM, Jason Resch wrote:


    On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg
    <whatsons...@gmail.com <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp.

        If the version of comp we are discussing here is
        independent of physics, then shouldn't it be possible for
        us to program universal machines using only empty space?
        Length can be quantified, so why can't we just use
        millimeters or Planck lengths as the basis for our
        enumeration, addition, and multiplication and directly
        program from our mind to space?

        Of course, it would be hard to know where it was because we
        would be constantly flying away from a space that was
        anchored to an absolute position independent of Earth, the
        solar system, Milky Way, etc, but that shouldn't matter
        anyhow since whatever method we use to directly program in
        empty space with our minds should also give us access to
        the results of the computations.


    Right this is already the case.  That we can use our minds to
    access the results.


        What do you think? Just as wafers of silicon glass could in
        theory be functionally identical to a living brain,
        wouldn't it be equally prejudiced to say that empty space
        isn't good enough to host the computations of silicon?


    We don't even need empty space, we can use thought alone to
    figure out the future evolution of computers that already exist
    in Platonia and then get the result of any computation.  The
    problem is we are slow at doing this, so we build machines that
    can tell us what these platonic machines do with greater speed
    and accuracy than we ever could.

    It's not doing the computations that is hard, the computations
    are already there.  The problem is learning their results.

    Jason

        It takes the consumption of resources to "learn the
    results". This is what I have been yelling at Bruno about the
    entire time since I first read his beautiful papers.
    Understanding is never free.


For us (in this universe) to learn the results of a platonic computation may take resources, but if you happen to be that very platonic computation in question, then you don't need to do anything extra to get the result. You are the result.

Jason
Jason,

That is not the point! I think we all agree on what you remark upon! It is how everything gets partitioned up so that we have the kind of world we observe. We observe a classical world where things don't work with infinite resources or infinite speed or infinite connectivity. We are asking for the fact that we observe an illusion to be explained!

Does 38 have any factors?

Does program xyz stop in fewer than 10^100 steps?

Both of these are mathematical questions with only one possible answer. Their truth is established whether or not we test it, ask it, implement it or think it. They would be either true or false even if nothing existed for us to have any hope of answering it.

Hi Jason,

You are missing the point. There is the Truth and there is the ability to know of it. The former is immaterial, independent of any one of us. The latter is physical, we must work to have it.


If you mathematically defined what programs are conscious you could even say the question "Does program xyz contain conscious entities?" is a mathematical question. If it is true, then there exist conscious entities.

    We have to be able to communicate...


Your requirement that there be some "real" implementation for computation leads to an infinite regress. What "real" computer is our universe running on?

    The underlying Quantum's unitary transformation.


Jason



--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html

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