On 9/21/2012 11:05 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

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On Sep 21, 2012, at 6:55 AM, "Stephen P. King" <stephe...@charter.net<mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:On 9/21/2012 1:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Stephen P. King<stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:On 9/20/2012 11:48 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote: Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of physics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universal machines using only empty space? Length can be quantified, so why can't we just use millimeters or Planck lengths as the basis for our enumeration, addition, and multiplication and directly program from our mind to space? Of course, it would be hard to know where it was because we would be constantly flying away from a space that was anchored to an absolute position independent of Earth, the solar system, Milky Way, etc, but that shouldn't matter anyhow since whatever method we use to directly program in empty space with our minds should also give us access to the results of the computations. Right this is already the case. That we can use our minds to access the results. What do you think? Just as wafers of silicon glass could in theory be functionally identical to a living brain, wouldn't it be equally prejudiced to say that empty space isn't good enough to host the computations of silicon? We don't even need empty space, we can use thought alone to figure out the future evolution of computers that already exist in Platonia and then get the result of any computation. The problem is we are slow at doing this, so we build machines that can tell us what these platonic machines do with greater speed and accuracy than we ever could. It's not doing the computations that is hard, the computations are already there. The problem is learning their results. JasonIt takes the consumption of resources to "learn the results". This is what I have been yelling at Bruno about the entire time since I first read his beautiful papers. Understanding is never free.For us (in this universe) to learn the results of a platoniccomputation may take resources, but if you happen to be that veryplatonic computation in question, then you don't need to do anythingextra to get the result. You are the result.JasonJason,That is not the point! I think we all agree on what you remarkupon! It is how everything gets partitioned up so that we have thekind of world we observe. We observe a classical world where thingsdon't work with infinite resources or infinite speed or infiniteconnectivity. We are asking for the fact that we observe an illusionto be explained!Does 38 have any factors? Does program xyz stop in fewer than 10^100 steps?Both of these are mathematical questions with only one possibleanswer. Their truth is established whether or not we test it, ask it,implement it or think it. They would be either true or false even ifnothing existed for us to have any hope of answering it.

Hi Jason,

`You are missing the point. There is the Truth and there is the`

`ability to know of it. The former is immaterial, independent of any one`

`of us. The latter is physical, we must work to have it.`

If you mathematically defined what programs are conscious you couldeven say the question "Does program xyz contain conscious entities?"is a mathematical question. If it is true, then there exist consciousentities.

We have to be able to communicate...

Your requirement that there be some "real" implementation forcomputation leads to an infinite regress. What "real" computer is ouruniverse running on?

The underlying Quantum's unitary transformation.

Jason

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