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`On Sep 21, 2012, at 6:55 AM, "Stephen P. King" <stephe...@charter.net>`

`wrote:`

On 9/21/2012 1:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net> wrote:On 9/20/2012 11:48 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp.If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent ofphysics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universalmachines using only empty space? Length can be quantified, so whycan't we just use millimeters or Planck lengths as the basis forour enumeration, addition, and multiplication and directly programfrom our mind to space?Of course, it would be hard to know where it was because we wouldbe constantly flying away from a space that was anchored to anabsolute position independent of Earth, the solar system, MilkyWay, etc, but that shouldn't matter anyhow since whatever methodwe use to directly program in empty space with our minds shouldalso give us access to the results of the computations.Right this is already the case. That we can use our minds toaccess the results.What do you think? Just as wafers of silicon glass could in theorybe functionally identical to a living brain, wouldn't it beequally prejudiced to say that empty space isn't good enough tohost the computations of silicon?We don't even need empty space, we can use thought alone to figureout the future evolution of computers that already exist inPlatonia and then get the result of any computation. The problemis we are slow at doing this, so we build machines that can tellus what these platonic machines do with greater speed and accuracythan we ever could.It's not doing the computations that is hard, the computations arealready there. The problem is learning their results.JasonIt takes the consumption of resources to "learn the results".This is what I have been yelling at Bruno about the entire timesince I first read his beautiful papers. Understanding is never free.For us (in this universe) to learn the results of a platoniccomputation may take resources, but if you happen to be that veryplatonic computation in question, then you don't need to doanything extra to get the result. You are the result.JasonJason,That is not the point! I think we all agree on what you remarkupon! It is how everything gets partitioned up so that we have thekind of world we observe. We observe a classical world where thingsdon't work with infinite resources or infinite speed or infiniteconnectivity. We are asking for the fact that we observe an illusionto be explained!

Does 38 have any factors? Does program xyz stop in fewer than 10^100 steps?

`Both of these are mathematical questions with only one possible`

`answer. Their truth is established whether or not we test it, ask it,`

`implement it or think it. They would be either true or false even if`

`nothing existed for us to have any hope of answering it.`

`If you mathematically defined what programs are conscious you could`

`even say the question "Does program xyz contain conscious entities?"`

`is a mathematical question. If it is true, then there exist conscious`

`entities.`

`Your requirement that there be some "real" implementation for`

`computation leads to an infinite regress. What "real" computer is our`

`universe running on?`

Jason

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