Roger:

Please then describe for us in detail however painstaking 
that model of consciousness which you hold, and your means 
of determining intelligence.  That is, present for us in 
clear text your measures; the waving of hands is specifically 
disallowed as an offering of answer to this challenge.

wrb



> -----Original Message-----
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
> l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:26 AM
> To: everything-list
> Subject: Can a computer make independent choices ?
> 
> Hi Stephen P. King
> 
> I don't deny that a computer can optimize itself,
> but I deny that the operation is autonomous,
> meaning independent, for ultimately it is software
> dependent, using a program written by an outsider.
> True intelligence and true consciousness must be
> to whatever extent possible independent of outside
> help or perspective.
> 
> Isn't the self 1p ? not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 9/25/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Stephen P. King
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-09-24, 10:39:14
> Subject: Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge
> 
> 
> On 9/24/2012 9:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
> > Hi meekerdb
> >
> > The computer can mechanically prove something,
> > but it cannot know that it did so. It cannot
> > sit back with a beer and muse over how smart it is.
> >
> >
> Hi Roger,
> 
>      What you are considering that a computer does not have is the
> ability to model itself within its environment and compute
> optimizations
> of such a model to guide its future choices. This can be well
> represented within a computational framework and it is something that
> Bruno has worked out in his comp model. (My only beef with Bruno is
> that
> his model is so abstract that it is completely disconnected from the
> physical world and thus has a "body" problem.)
> 
> --
> Onward!
> 
> Stephen
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
> 
> 
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