On 11 Nov 2012, at 19:53, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> the main problem is that you're striving to somehow get the
Helsinki man to remember the future,
> To predict it. Precisely to predict its personal memory of the
past, in the future.
I have no idea what " its personal memory of the past in the future"
It is the content of the diary that the candidate brings with him in
the teleportation box, and in which he will put the result of his self-
localization after having push on the button and been duplicated in W
or who "its" refers to
Up to the duplication, it concerns the Helsinki person, and after the
duplication, it concerns all the copies. As the diary has been
duplicated too in the two places, it will contain W, or it will
contain M, from all possible subject being interrogated.
but I can predict that in the future there will be 2 people who call
themselves John Clark
and BOTH of them will remember being me, the Helsinki man of right
I can also predict that one of those people will feel like he's in
Washington and only Washington and the other will feel like he's in
Moscow and only Moscow.
That's correct. And from this it follows that one will write W in the
diary, and the other will write M. Both will agree that they were
unable to predict this individual particular outcome.
So Bruno, what part of my prediction do you think I got wrong?
You said "W and M". here you were correct on all point, but did not
give the answer to the question asked to the Helsinki person: "where
you will feel to be after pushing the button", or "what do you expect
to write in the diary after pushing the button and proceed to the self-
Just like any prediction the only way to tell if it was correct or
not it to wait until the future arrives and examine the evidence, in
this case that means interviewing the Washington man and the Moscow
Man and BOTH will say that my prediction was 100% correct.
If you allude to the prediction "W and M", both will understand that
it was NOT correct, as both will agree to be self-localized, from
their 1p view, in only one city, and the question was "which one?".
Speaking of predictions I can predict what you're response to this
will be, you'll start peeing again and insisting that I'm confused.
But the fact is you can't interview "the Helsinki man of right now"
after the experiment and see if he still thinks his prediction is
(was?) correct because the Helsinki man of right now will not exist
in the future and nobody can remember the future, only the past.
With comp the helsinki man survives the double teleportation, despite
his body has been annihilated, and so I can interview the Helsinki man
in both M and W places, and both assess to be now in one precise and
> But the helsinki guy is sure that it will be W or M.
That's one reason this thought experiment is so weak, it depends
entirely on who the Helsinki man is;
Not at all. It concerns any human or machines doing the experience.
if he's you then yes he is sure it will be W or M, but if he's me
then no because he is sure it will be W AND M.
This is not possible, as comp guaranty that there will no simultaneous
connected consciousness of being in W and M. You are just persisting
in the confusion between the 3-view on the 1-views, and the 1-views
And it's important to keep in mind that predicting is not the same
as remembering and being sure is not the same as being correct.
John K Clark
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