On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>> I have no idea what " its personal memory of the past in the future"
> > It is the content of the diary that the candidate brings with him in the
> teleportation box, and in which he will put the result of his
> self-localization after having push on the button
According to your protocol the Helsinki Man is destroyed when he pushes
that button so he writes nothing at all in his diary after that. As for
what the Helsinki Man imagines will happen to him after he pushes that
button I really don't care because that depends entirely on the particular
personal beliefs of the man involved. I'm not interested in what the
Helsinki man believes will happen to him I'm interested in what will really
happen to him and to find that out the Helsinki man is of no use because he
no longer exists in the future. To find out what happened to him we need to
rely on memory not prediction and we need to interview all the parties that
still exist, and that means the Washington and the Moscow man. If we do
that we find that the Washington man remembers being the Helsinki man and
remembers that man walking into the booth and being instantly teleported to
Washington where he is alive and well, and we find that the Moscow man
remembers being the Helsinki man and remembers that man walking into the
booth and being instantly teleported to Moscow where he is alive and well.
>> or who "its" refers to
> > Up to the duplication, it concerns the Helsinki person, and after the
> duplication, it concerns all the copies. As the diary has been duplicated
> too in the two places, it will contain W, or it will contain M, from all
> possible subject being interrogated.
And if John Clark had been the Helsinki man you would find that his diary
contained a correct prediction of what was going to happen as can be easily
verified by asking everybody that still existed. If Bruno Marchal had been
the Helsinki man you would find that his diary contained a lot of mystical
stuff that can only be verified by asking the Helsinki man to remember the
In general the only way to know if a mind has survived from point A to
point B on a timeline is to look back from point C, there is no way to know
for sure from point A because predicting is hard, especially the future
:>), and because we remember the past and not the future.
> >> but I can predict that in the future there will be 2 people who call
> themselves John Clark
> > That's correct.
> >> and BOTH of them will remember being me, the Helsinki man of right now.
> > That's correct.
> >> I can also predict that one of those people will feel like he's in
> Washington and only Washington and the other will feel like he's in Moscow
> and only Moscow.
> > That's correct.
> And from this it follows that one will write W in the diary, and the
> other will write M.
> Both will agree that they were unable to predict this individual
> particular outcome.
WHAT?!! Both will agree that was exactly precisely what the Helsinki man
predicted would happen, even if the Helsinki man was Bruno Marchal, even he
made the correct prediction. Bruno Marchal predicted that 2 people will
feel to be the Helsinki man and Bruno Marchal predicted that nobody will be
experiencing Helsinki anymore because the body there has been destroyed,
and Bruno Marchal predicted that both people who feel like the Helsinki man
will be experiencing one and only one city and Bruno Marchal predicted that
the Washington man will be the one experiencing Washington and the Moscow
man will be the one experiencing Moscow. I just don't see what more is
needed for a successful prediction.
> >> So Bruno, what part of my prediction do you think I got wrong?
> > You said "W and M". here you were correct on all point,
> but did not give the answer to the question asked to the Helsinki person:
> "where you will feel to be after pushing the button",
I did not answer the question for 2 reasons:
1) It's a incomplete question because with that machine and all its
duplication and destruction it is not clear who "you" is; it's the same
reason I don't answer the question "how long is a piece of string?".
2) The question demands a single answer but in this case there is not one.
I won't answer the question "what is the one and only number that solves
the equation X^2 =4 ?" either because the answer is 2 AND -2, there is no
one and only one answer.
> or "what do you expect to write in the diary after pushing the button and
> proceed to the self-localization?"
It doesn't matter what the Helsinki man expects to happen it only matters
what will happen, and to determine that we need to examine memory not
predictions, and in this the Helsinki man is of no use to us because he
can't remember the future.
> from their 1p view, in only one city,
> and the question was "which one?".
If you're the Washington man then the city you'll see is Washington and if
you're the Moscow man then the city you'll see is Moscow; and you become
the Washington man by seeing Washington and you become the Moscow man by
seeing Moscow. I know this sounds trite but you asked the question not me,
and tautologies do have one virtue, they're true.
> With comp the helsinki man survives the double teleportation, despite his
> body has been annihilated,
I agree with that, but if there was a delay and the destruction of the body
in Helsinki had not happened immediately after the copying then the
Helsinki man would not survive because then he would have had time for a
last thought. How long is immediately? About a second or two.
> and so I can interview the Helsinki man in both M and W places, and both
> assess to be now in one precise and particular city.
Exactly precisely the outcome that John Clark predicted.
> You are just persisting in the confusion between the 3-view on the
> 1-views, and the 1-views themselves.
As further evidence of my great soothsaying ability yesterday I said this:
"I can predict what you're response to this will be, you'll start peeing
again and insisting that I'm confused".
Nostradamus eat your heart out.
John K Clark
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