Hi Brent, On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:33 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1/7/2013 5:09 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:56 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 1/6/2013 3:45 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Stephen P. King >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> On 1/6/2013 4:56 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> On 1/6/2013 1:33 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: >>> >>> On 1/6/2013 3:49 PM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>> Hi Stephen P. King >>> >>> The word "must" implies forcible persuasion. >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> But the use of force to persuade is not the essence of fascism. >>> Fascism is a governing system where the population can own property >>> privately but the use of said property is dictated by the State. Most >>> countries are fascistic. >>> >>> >>> Only because you've taken a single attribute of Fascism and taken it to >>> be a definition. Fascism is the idea that a nation is a kind of >>> super-being in which labor, industry, and government are *bound together >>> into one* (hence the name) and the life of citizens takes meaning from how >>> they serve their function as an element of The State. This was further >>> taken to imply that superior, i.e. Fascist, nations should bring this >>> superior culture to other inferior, i.e. non-Fascist, nations by armed >>> conquest. >>> >>> Brent >>> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the >>> merger of state and corporate power." >>> --- Benito Mussolini. >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Thank you, Brent, for this. ;-) I was trying to highlight the >>> behavior of fascism in ways that do not invoke extraneous discussion. All >>> that you added, while true, is irrelevant to my definition as it is >>> representative of just one form of fascism, that of Mussolini's Italy. >>> >>> >> Negative, from German perspective: Nazi as adherent to NSDAP (German: >> Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) so "national socialist >> german worker's party" wrote in their constitution that "corporations >> potentially pose a threat to the state and have to thus be merged with >> state force to facilitate common good". This was done not only to build and >> develop weapons, but to build the A1 freeway, on which yours truly traveled >> south today. >> >> Don't know how Japan handled it, but imagine that it would've run along >> similar lines. High efficiency, high productivity, lowers unemployment, >> automatically restrains budding monopolies... all the kind of things the >> west proclaims to want today; even though history should at some point >> teach us what this means, we don't seem to get it or don't want to. >> >> >> Nazism was not Fascism. It borrowed from Fascism but it added mystic >> racism, Hitler cult, and genocide. >> >> Brent >> > > Didn't imply that. > > Much less I'd say... if someone's wearing a Mussolini corporate state > control merger fascism-pin, as implied by your quote of Mussolini, then it > doesn't matter to me which other pins, mystical or belief (what was that > difference again?) based, that person wears: > > > It would make a difference to me. A fascist just has a bad idea about the > relation of the state, the corporation and the individual. A nazi is a > racist who believes that there is a superior Aryan race which should rule > over all other people and that there are inferior races that should be > exterminated. > > Sure, but then you miss bidirectional implication between the two, which you don't, when you comment on extremism in the other thread. Not a simple matter of keeping ideologies seperate, as it's clear Italy and Japan were constitutionally racist at the period in question because you simply always need to pin your extreme state-corporate merger idea to some ideal: nationalist, religious etc. Consequently, you need to construct out-group narratives as inferior, impure, degenerate foes to rid ourselves off + messianic party leaders, games, sports heroes and such since antique. To some weaker or stronger extent, take your pick, like the drug war, terror, Russians in cold war and so on. Extremism taken literally and held over periods of time in any large scale political package, be it left, right, religious, mystical, green carries the same fundamentalist idiocy in its wake that leads to a lot of pain for power's sake. Put simply, it doesn't matter what it clothes itself in. In fact, falling prey to the different guises, in the sense you emphasize differentiation is perhaps even harmful: we should always recognize each other and the world around us when extremely reductionist statements are made by uhm... highly enthusiastic agents/interest. Differentiation leaves place for people to argue: "Yeah well, this time is different... extraordinary measures justify etc." Result is always... and difference is more a matter of degree, more than narrative or beliefs masking power grabs. Difference lies more in "how many people had to die and suffer this time"; rather than taking the ideological bs seriously outside of gauging historically how they framed problems we face and will be facing. they are fascist in that precise sense. They might be Japanese, play scrabble, and be slightly overweight too, which is absolutely, definitely healthy ;) An adherent to Nazism is a fascist via the corporate-state-merger-idea and reasoning, although the reverse is not necessary. Nazism did not merely "borrow" this: the whole economic upswing in the early Nazi years can be traced to the merger idea, and Germany took this as far as it could. If corporations didn't play ball: leave or die. They were facist or corporatist in this precise sense, and the cult/mysticism (difference to belief, I ask again? Isn't any belief system viewed externally just 'mysticism' in pejorative sense?) didn't change this: it enforced it. No, the arguments made for fascism and communism were mostly rational. > An airline would definitely not permit the weight of your "mostly rational" here as carry-on baggage. Yes, they are reasonable... but so is their extension into anti-immigration laws, and then camps for violators etc. The argument for the superiority of an Aryan race and the significance of > "Blud und Volk" was purely an emotional appeal to the German ego > (corruption as Alberto would say). > > Brent > I guess you mean "Blut und Boden" (blood and soil) ideology? If so, agreed. 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