On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:24, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
The senses convert the phenomenol space-time "world out there"
I don't grasp how something phenomenal can be "out there".
into nonphysical perceived entities which are stored
internally as memories.
A memory is experienced internally, so no space-time.
Space-time is also experienced internally. All experience are
"internal".
Then one might say that 1p is the black box that converts
MY view of the physical into its corresponding
personal nonphysical state.
I am OK with this, but no need of a black post in comp. We need "just"
to relate God-arithmetical-truth, and the machine beliefs. (Bp & p).
That works!
Bruno
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/16/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-15, 08:47:49
Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects
Theory
On 13 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:57:48 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:01, Telmo Menezes wrote:
Hi Roger,
How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal
dimensions?
I don't see why we cannot have purely mathematical waves (easily
related to lines and circles),
Lines and circles are spatial geometries.
They can, but usually I take them as deeper than geometry, but then
"geometry" is a word having many interpretation too.
and physical waves, like water wave or tsunami, or sound waves.
A propagating wave is a sort of oscillation contagious to its
neighborhood.
All of those are spatio-temporal sensory experiences and presences.
I don't think that an experience can be spatio-temporal. With comp I
argued that space-time emerges from coherence conditions on "deep
dreams/computations".
It looks like you are working in a theory which assume some
primitive space time.
A purely mathematical wave which is independent of all spatial or
temporal representation can only be a figurative wave. If you have
concretely real substances in 'space' or concretely real experiences
in 'time' then you can have a figurative language which refers to
the wavy qualities which we infer through sense as being correlated
on either side of the public-private range of presentation. This
wavy-ness is an idea, a metaphorical figure which we use to re-
present the commonality which we understand internally but as an
exteriorized, generic symbol.
As you know, with comp, it is the "concrete real substance" which
belong to the (quite useful locally) metaphors.
Once we have formalized this synthetic wave figure quantitatively,
we can do all kinds of incredible things with it, just as a painter
uses a certain kind of brushstroke. But the strokeness isn't a thing
itself - it has no power to do anything by itself, it is pure
fiction (albeit fiction which is informative about sense on all
levels of realism, but only from the fictional 3p voyeur perspective).
That is coherent with non-comp, indeed. But I have no faith in
substances.
Bruno
Craig
Summing waves gives arbitrary functions (in some functional spaces),
so simple wave can be see as the base in the space of "arbitrary"
functions (for reasonable functional spaces, there are any natural
restrictions here).
The whole problem with QM, is that the wave's physical
interpretation is an amplitude of probability, and that we can make
them interfere as if they were physical. But in MWI, the quantum
waves are just the map of the relative accessible physical
realities. An electronic orbital is a map of where you can find an
electron, for an example.
I would say it is something physical (even if it emerges from the
non physical relations between numbers).
Bruno
On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi everything-list,
I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI.
Here's why:
I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect,
due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves
are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic.
This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed
in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave
and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird
happening.
My own view is that the weirdness arises because the
waves and the photons are residents of two completely
different but interpenetrating worlds, where:
1) the photon is a resident of the physical world,
where by physical I mean (along with Descartes)
"extended in space",
2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of
the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no
extension in space.
Under these conditions, there is no need
to create an additional physical world, since each
can exist as aspects of the the same world,
one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like
mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world
beyond spacetime.
[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/12/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
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