Hi Bruno Marchal 

I seem to have been using words sloppily. You can't get away with that
with a mathematician :-)

Let me try again. 

The phenomenol is what "appears" to be out there.

And yes, the experience of it is internal.


And you said:

"I am OK with this, but no need of a black post in comp. We need "just" 
to relate God-arithmetical-truth, and the machine beliefs. (Bp & p). 
That works!"

I was thinking of Secondness as that black box.
With Firstness as the input signal and Thirdness as the
output signal. Then you have a typical linear system
 (if that's the right word).

I was suggesting that the box be the convolution function,
as in systems theory.



[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/16/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-16, 11:02:52
Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects Theory


On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:24, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> The senses convert the phenomenol space-time "world out there"

I don't grasp how something phenomenal can be "out there".



> into nonphysical perceived entities which are stored
> internally as memories.
>
> A memory is experienced internally, so no space-time.


Space-time is also experienced internally. All experience are 
"internal".


>
> Then one might say that 1p is the black box that converts
> MY view of the physical into its corresponding
> personal nonphysical state.

I am OK with this, but no need of a black post in comp. We need "just" 
to relate God-arithmetical-truth, and the machine beliefs. (Bp & p). 
That works!

Bruno



>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
> 1/16/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-15, 08:47:49
> Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects 
> Theory
>
>
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:57:48 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:01, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>
>
> Hi Roger,
>
>
> How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal 
> dimensions?
>
>
>
>
> I don't see why we cannot have purely mathematical waves (easily 
> related to lines and circles),
>
> Lines and circles are spatial geometries.
>
>
>
> They can, but usually I take them as deeper than geometry, but then 
> "geometry" is a word having many interpretation too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> and physical waves, like water wave or tsunami, or sound waves.
> A propagating wave is a sort of oscillation contagious to its 
> neighborhood.
>
> All of those are spatio-temporal sensory experiences and presences.
>
>
> I don't think that an experience can be spatio-temporal. With comp I 
> argued that space-time emerges from coherence conditions on "deep 
> dreams/computations".
> It looks like you are working in a theory which assume some 
> primitive space time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A purely mathematical wave which is independent of all spatial or 
> temporal representation can only be a figurative wave. If you have 
> concretely real substances in 'space' or concretely real experiences 
> in 'time' then you can have a figurative language which refers to 
> the wavy qualities which we infer through sense as being correlated 
> on either side of the public-private range of presentation. This 
> wavy-ness is an idea, a metaphorical figure which we use to re- 
> present the commonality which we understand internally but as an 
> exteriorized, generic symbol.
>
>
>
> As you know, with comp, it is the "concrete real substance" which 
> belong to the (quite useful locally) metaphors.
>
>
>
>
>
> Once we have formalized this synthetic wave figure quantitatively, 
> we can do all kinds of incredible things with it, just as a painter 
> uses a certain kind of brushstroke. But the strokeness isn't a thing 
> itself - it has no power to do anything by itself, it is pure 
> fiction (albeit fiction which is informative about sense on all 
> levels of realism, but only from the fictional 3p voyeur perspective).
>
>
>
> That is coherent with non-comp, indeed. But I have no faith in 
> substances.
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
> Summing waves gives arbitrary functions (in some functional spaces), 
> so simple wave can be see as the base in the space of "arbitrary" 
> functions (for reasonable functional spaces, there are any natural 
> restrictions here).
>
>
> The whole problem with QM, is that the wave's physical 
> interpretation is an amplitude of probability, and that we can make 
> them interfere as if they were physical. But in MWI, the quantum 
> waves are just the map of the relative accessible physical 
> realities. An electronic orbital is a map of where you can find an 
> electron, for an example.
> I would say it is something physical (even if it emerges from the 
> non physical relations between numbers).
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> Hi everything-list,
>
> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI.
> Here's why:
>
> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect,
> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves
> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic.
>
> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed
> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave
> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird
> happening.
>
> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the
> waves and the photons are residents of two completely
> different but interpenetrating worlds, where:
>
> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world,
> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes)
> "extended in space",
>
> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of
> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no
> extension in space.
>
> Under these conditions, there is no need
> to create an additional physical world, since each
> can exist as aspects of the the same world,
> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like
> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world
> beyond spacetime.
>
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
> 1/12/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>
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