[Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
1/16/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-16, 11:02:52
Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects
Theory
On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:24, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> The senses convert the phenomenol space-time "world out there"
I don't grasp how something phenomenal can be "out there".
> into nonphysical perceived entities which are stored
> internally as memories.
>
> A memory is experienced internally, so no space-time.
Space-time is also experienced internally. All experience are
"internal".
>
> Then one might say that 1p is the black box that converts
> MY view of the physical into its corresponding
> personal nonphysical state.
I am OK with this, but no need of a black post in comp. We need "just"
to relate God-arithmetical-truth, and the machine beliefs. (Bp & p).
That works!
Bruno
>
>
> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
> 1/16/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-15, 08:47:49
> Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects
> Theory
>
>
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:57:48 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:01, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>
>
> Hi Roger,
>
>
> How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal
> dimensions?
>
>
>
>
> I don't see why we cannot have purely mathematical waves (easily
> related to lines and circles),
>
> Lines and circles are spatial geometries.
>
>
>
> They can, but usually I take them as deeper than geometry, but then
> "geometry" is a word having many interpretation too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> and physical waves, like water wave or tsunami, or sound waves.
> A propagating wave is a sort of oscillation contagious to its
> neighborhood.
>
> All of those are spatio-temporal sensory experiences and presences.
>
>
> I don't think that an experience can be spatio-temporal. With comp I
> argued that space-time emerges from coherence conditions on "deep
> dreams/computations".
> It looks like you are working in a theory which assume some
> primitive space time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A purely mathematical wave which is independent of all spatial or
> temporal representation can only be a figurative wave. If you have
> concretely real substances in 'space' or concretely real experiences
> in 'time' then you can have a figurative language which refers to
> the wavy qualities which we infer through sense as being correlated
> on either side of the public-private range of presentation. This
> wavy-ness is an idea, a metaphorical figure which we use to re-
> present the commonality which we understand internally but as an
> exteriorized, generic symbol.
>
>
>
> As you know, with comp, it is the "concrete real substance" which
> belong to the (quite useful locally) metaphors.
>
>
>
>
>
> Once we have formalized this synthetic wave figure quantitatively,
> we can do all kinds of incredible things with it, just as a painter
> uses a certain kind of brushstroke. But the strokeness isn't a thing
> itself - it has no power to do anything by itself, it is pure
> fiction (albeit fiction which is informative about sense on all
> levels of realism, but only from the fictional 3p voyeur
perspective).
>
>
>
> That is coherent with non-comp, indeed. But I have no faith in
> substances.
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
> Summing waves gives arbitrary functions (in some functional spaces),
> so simple wave can be see as the base in the space of "arbitrary"
> functions (for reasonable functional spaces, there are any natural
> restrictions here).
>
>
> The whole problem with QM, is that the wave's physical
> interpretation is an amplitude of probability, and that we can make
> them interfere as if they were physical. But in MWI, the quantum
> waves are just the map of the relative accessible physical
> realities. An electronic orbital is a map of where you can find an
> electron, for an example.
> I would say it is something physical (even if it emerges from the
> non physical relations between numbers).
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> Hi everything-list,
>
> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI.
> Here's why:
>
> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect,
> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves
> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and
materialistic.
>
> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed
> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave
> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird
> happening.
>
> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the
> waves and the photons are residents of two completely
> different but interpenetrating worlds, where:
>
> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world,
> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes)
> "extended in space",
>
> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of
> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no
> extension in space.
>
> Under these conditions, there is no need
> to create an additional physical world, since each
> can exist as aspects of the the same world,
> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like
> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world
> beyond spacetime.
>
> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
> 1/12/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>
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