On Monday, January 21, 2013 12:36:48 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2013, at 18:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Monday, January 21, 2013 11:53:07 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>> Science had to fight every inch of the way against theology and 
>> theologians and the fight still isn't over.
> That is a fiction of historical revisionism. Science is a kind of 
> philosophy, philosophy is a refinement of theology. You will never find a 
> civilization which has developed science without philosophy or philosophy 
> without some kind of spiritual framework of cosmology. That's just the 
> facts, man. The founders of Western Enlightenment science would be quite 
> surprised to hear that their invention of science was a fight against 
> theology as they were profoundly theological and philosophical in their 
> orientation. It is only recently, as the limitations of the narrow Western 
> approach are being revealed on a global scale, that science has fallen into 
> a fundamentalist pathology which makes an enemy of teleology.
> ... Theology, I guess you meant. Good point.

Thanks. I have more sympathy for science rejecting Theology, just because I 
see Theology as focused on extending subjective types of truth to the 
public universe as a whole. Science may not be complete without addressing 
larger theological issues, but it has been important to temporarily 
suppress them to develop tools of objectivity. I think that where it has 
overstepped its bounds in recent years (and I don't blame anyone for this, 
it's probably inevitable in the pendulum swing of the history of 
sense-making) is in using the objective tools to dismantle subjectivity 
altogether. That's why I was saying enemy of teleology. Sense, order, 
purpose, etc.. have become the despised contaminants which somehow are the 
exclusive province of the scientist, but not allowed anywhere else in the 


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