On 21 Jan 2013, at 19:00, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Monday, January 21, 2013 12:36:48 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 21 Jan 2013, at 18:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Monday, January 21, 2013 11:53:07 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:

Science had to fight every inch of the way against theology and theologians and the fight still isn't over.

That is a fiction of historical revisionism. Science is a kind of philosophy, philosophy is a refinement of theology. You will never find a civilization which has developed science without philosophy or philosophy without some kind of spiritual framework of cosmology. That's just the facts, man. The founders of Western Enlightenment science would be quite surprised to hear that their invention of science was a fight against theology as they were profoundly theological and philosophical in their orientation. It is only recently, as the limitations of the narrow Western approach are being revealed on a global scale, that science has fallen into a fundamentalist pathology which makes an enemy of teleology.

... Theology, I guess you meant. Good point.

Thanks. I have more sympathy for science rejecting Theology, just because I see Theology as focused on extending subjective types of truth to the public universe as a whole. Science may not be complete without addressing larger theological issues, but it has been important to temporarily suppress them to develop tools of objectivity.

I agree. Aristotle's theological primary matter idea was a fertile simplifying assumption. It led to modern physics, but becomes an unconscious dogma, again, for many (but not all thanks God!) scientists since.


I think that where it has overstepped its bounds in recent years (and I don't blame anyone for this, it's probably inevitable in the pendulum swing of the history of sense-making) is in using the objective tools to dismantle subjectivity altogether. That's why I was saying enemy of teleology. Sense, order, purpose, etc.. have become the despised contaminants which somehow are the exclusive province of the scientist, but not allowed anywhere else in the universe.

OK.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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