On 27 Jan 2013, at 13:49, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

Well, meditations might be enough, perhaps. Sleep leads also to dissociate state, simpler version of oneself, and the resulting strange "realities".

Even the idea that we are unconscious during deep sleep does not convince me.

Me neither. I have always suspected, like Descartes, that we cannot be "unconscious" (if that is not trivial from the 1p perspective). And since 5 years, I have clear evidences that we are conscious in all phases of sleep, but it is a hell of work to be able to memorize the "events", especially for the slow sleep (the non REM sleep, in french).

Can you tell us how you did it?
Personally, I noticed many times that when I wake up directly from deep sleep I am in an alien emotional state, compared to every day life emotions. I feel things that I have no name for.

Interesting. I have explored the "rem state" for years. I have dream diaries, where I describe the texture, the colors, the type of feeling, and if it is lucid, non-lucid, contra-lucid, pre-lucid (there is a large variety of 'altered conscious state' in dreams).

In fact, from 1989 to 1994, I did some training of myself into the lucid state (getting an average of four lucid dreams per month). In 1994, I succeeded for the first time to stay lucid falling in sleep, and remain conscious during the low sleep before the start of the dreams, and that was pretty alluring.

I don't recommend the technic, as it leads very easily to insomnia. The technic was mainly:

1) Do whatever to be extremely tired (example: preliminary white night(s), long walk during the day, ...)
2) Absorb a huge quantity of coffee before going to bed.

As you can guess there are variants, like using alcohol or whatever.

The difficulty relies in a frustration, between letting oneself completely go, and sleep, and still doing the work of maintaining attention focused on the fact that we are conscious.

Usually we go to bed to relax and "let it go" (including the memories and the making of memories). To get "lucid" at night (enough to keep consciousness, and memorizing it), you have to still make memories (to be able to witness the consciousness, so to speak), and simultaneously letting yourself "go enough" to let your brain handle the sleep process.

No doubt you will perturb the process all along, but then in first person consciousness studies we are our only guinea-pig.

In the slow sleep, there are mixture of "nothing but consciousness", sometimes a sort of "verbosity", and there are sort of "dreams" which apparently mix and jump from many scenarios to completely different one, very quickly, and we don't, normally, remember any of this. They can support contents which are often related to the thoughts of the day. (With fever similar states can become quite obsessive).

You can't practice this often, and that experience (with coffee) was exceptional. But to be frank, I have progressed in that kind of observation in 2008, when I discovered Salvia divinorum. It seems far more efficacious, and far less toxic, than coffee, before bed.



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