Hi Liz,

On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 12:30 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 October 2013 08:44, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/30/2013 5:05 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>> Even under functionalist assumptions, I still find the Turing test to
>> be misguided because it require the machine to lie, while a human can
>> pass it by telling the truth.
>>
>>
>> Actually Turing already thought of this.  If you read his paper you find
>> that the test is not as usually proposed.  Turing's test was whether an
>> person communicating with a computer pretending to be a woman and a man
>> pretending to be a woman, would be fooled as to which was which.
>
>
> I thought Turing mentioned "The Imitation Game" in which someone tried to
> tell the other person's gender without any clues (like being able to hear
> their voice, or discussing matters that only a man or woman might be
> expected to know given the social norms at the time), and then extended that
> to involve a computer as one of the participants?
>
> That is, the TT as normally described involves someone trying to tell if
> they're talking to a computer or a human being. Are you saying that isn't
> how it was meant to be carried out?
>
> I might also say that the above description of the TT (a computer has to
> lie...) is also innaccurate, imho. The test is intended to indicate whether
> a computer can be a person. For example if you were communicating with HAL
> in 2001, you might easily mistake it for a man (as shown in the film)

Yes, I agree with the spirit of the test and with what you say. I'm
just claiming that, in practice, none of the versions of the test
work. HAL would very quickly fail any of the formulations of the TT
unless he lied. Not just a small lie either, but a major lie,
involving him pretending that he has a human body, human experiences
and so on. He's a "person" but he's not human.

But if you chatted with HAL for a while, fully knowing that your are a
computer, you would be much more reluctant to terminate it than you
are to kill your browser or whatever program you are using to read
this email. This is, in fact, one of the themes in 2001.

> and
> you would be right to do so, because HAL *is* a person in the story, by any
> reasonable criterion. (In fact he's the most human like person in the film!
> The astronauts act more like robots than he does most of the time!)

No doubt. I think we witness HAL becoming conscious and thus acquiring
the capacity for violence, but that's my interpretation. One of the
astronauts, on the other hand, ends up becoming something else. A lot
of people see the final scene of the movie as beautiful and inspiring,
I see it as possibly horrendous, but this is getting way off track!

Btw, I'm sorry if I'm being rude and not replying to everyone as I
should, but the current volume is more than I can handle. I'm sure I'm
not the only one experiencing the same problem.

> So a computer passing the TT (without hearing its voice or discussing
> matters only a human being/computer is likely to know, of course - as
> mentioned in the original paper, where the judge asks the testee to multiply
> two numbers and it pauses a while, and then makes a mistake, because the
> computer isn't allowed to invoke a "calculator function" just as a human
> shouldn't use a calculator - not that such things existed at the time!)
> shouldn't be considered to be lying. And it should be treated as a person. I
> think that was Turing's point.
>
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