Telmo, entering sci-fi makes the discussion irrelevant. what if... can e anything I want to show (I almost wrote: prove). I am also against 'thought experiments' - designed to PROVE things unreal (=not experienced in real life) - like e.g. the EPR etc., involving 'unfacts'. By long back-and-forth people get used to the fantasy-world and THINK it is true. Devise constants from 'real life' and 'math' (imaginary, but formalized as real). Then someone gets a Nobel prize on it. I rather stay a confessed gnostic. John M
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>wrote: > Dear John, > > > in spite of my reluctance to spend time and energy on that nightmare of > > teleportation-related follies - (probably a result of too heavy dinners > > after which Q-physicists could not sleep/relax) - and with no intention > to > > protect John Clark (a decent partner anyway) I may draw a thick line > between > > the terms "generating a new term" and "experiencing change" in passing. > > > > In my agnosticism I visualize the 'World' in constant dynamic change, so > > "nothing stays the same". What does not mean that 'instant by instant' > (if > > we accept time as a reality-factor) everything becomes renewed > > Changed: yes. (=My disagreement also against 'loops' in general). > > > > Considering the changes: they may be 'essential' (as e.g. death, or at > least > > extended to 'major' parts of our organization) - or just > incidental/partial. > > The way I try to figure out changes? there is an infinite complexity > > exercising (affecting) "our world" (i.e. the model we constructed for our > > existence as of latest) providing the stuff to our reductionist thinking > > ("That 'model' is all and we have to explain - fit everything into it"). > I > > arrived at this by Robert Rosen. > > So: I am not a 'different person' from what I was a second ago, YET I > feel > > identical to THAT person (maybe of decades ago) which underwent lots of > > changes - keeping the "SELF"-feeling (whatever that may be). > > It doesn't mean that I am identical to THAT person, who could run, > exercise, > > worked successfully in his conventional-reductionist science, etc. etc. I > > just FEEL as the same person (though changed, what I realize). > > I understand your reluctance. My intuition is that the fact that > rational discussion around things like teleportation turn into such a > nightmare is precisely a sign that there is something very fundamental > that we are not grasping. Sci-fi duplicators are nice because they > confront us with situations where our normal model of "I" breaks. Of > course maybe these duplicators are impossible, but they are a nice > shortcut to other possible physical situations that result in the same > type of problems. > > I suspect that trusting too much the feeling of being the same person > is problematic. Imagining another sci-fi device that could write all > of my personal memories into your brain (and that would come with my > sincere apologies): I suspect you would then feel that you are me. > Memories are just more perceptions, but what perceives? > > > In a doubling from 'Helsinki' to 'Moscow' (joke) it is not likely that > all > > those changes by the complexity-circumstances in Finnland would be > > duplicated by the changes in Russia, so the 'doubled' (clone???) changes > > into a different person. I leave it to the 'Everything' Friends to decide > > whether that person feels still like the other one. I wouldn't. > > What if you were duplicated inside an isolation tank? You could enter > the tank in Helsinki, wait a bit, open the lid and be in Moscow. It > would certainly feel strange but do you really think you would feel > you have been transformed into someone else? > > All the best, > Telmo. > > > Just musing. Respectfully > > John Mikes > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one bit > of > >> >> information, > >> > > >> > > >> > I agree that if that one bit of information that they both see is not > >> > identical then the 2 men are no longer identical either and it becomes > >> > justified to give them different names. > >> > >> Ok, so you then also have to agree that John Clark 1 second ago is not > >> identical to John Clark 2 seconds ago. But things would get a bit > >> confusing if I started calling you Mary Sue now. > >> > >> Both you and external observers agree that you are still John Clark. > >> > >> Either you claim that teleportation is fundamentally different from > >> time passing in generating new John Clarks, or you don't. Which one is > >> it? > >> > >> I suspect you think they are the same, but I also predict an attempt > >> to avoid answering the question directly, possibly combined with > >> comparing me to a baboon with below-average IQ and early onset > >> dementia. > >> > >> > >> >> > then you agree with the first person indeterminacy. > >> > > >> > > >> > I agree that life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what > >> > you're > >> > going to see next. Forrest Gump had that figured out a long time ago. > >> > > >> > > >> >>> >> As far as personal identity or consciousness or a continuous > >> >>> >> feeling > >> >>> >> of self is concerned it it totally irrelevant if that prediction, > >> >>> >> or any > >> >>> >> other prediction for that matter, is confirmed or refuted, nor > does > >> >>> >> it > >> >>> >> matter if the prediction was probabilistic or absolute. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ? (as far as I can make sense of this sentence, it looks like it > >> >> > makes > >> >> > my point) > >> > > >> > > >> > I'm very glad to hear that. But what was your point? > >> > > >> > John K Clark > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "Everything List" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >> > an > >> > email to [email protected]. > >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Everything List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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