Yeah and a chicken is a dog.
Le 29 oct. 2013 03:41, "Richard Ruquist" <yann...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> So matter is just maya-illusion.
> That is really religion- right?
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/10/28 Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com>
>>
>>> Bruno: The fact that something is enumerable does not entail that you
>>> can derive it from PA, nor that it is a necessary part of physics.
>>>
>>> Richard: You got it backwards. The CY Compact manifolds are the machine
>>> that computes because they are enumerable. It derives everything else. In
>>> particular the Metaverse machine derives the universe big bang and the
>>> universe CY machine. I cannot say what derives the Metaverse machine
>>>
>>> Bruno: Note that we cannot derive the existence of matter in
>>> arithmetic, but we can, and with comp we must (by UDA) derive the machine's
>>> belief in matter. machines lives in arithmetic, but matter lives in the
>>> machines' dream which "cohere enough" (to be short).
>>>  If it happens that the machines dream do *not* cohere enough to
>>> percolate into physical realities, then comp is wrong.
>>>
>>> Richard: Is this an admission that physical realities exist outside of
>>> comp?
>>>
>>
>> No, matter is an appearance hence the use of "machine's belief in
>> matter". There is no primary matter (assuming comp).
>>
>>
>>> That's what it sounds like. And I thought that comp derived physical
>>> realities. If it does not do that, what good is it?
>>>
>>> Bruno: Assuming comp, elementary machine's theology and physics becomes
>>> elementary arithmetic, relativized by the universal machine's point of
>>> view. It makes physics invariant for the choice of the universal system
>>> chosen to describe the phi_i, the W_i, etc.
>>>
>>> Richard: Here you seem to contradict you previous statement that comp
>>> cannot derive matter. Please forgive my confusion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 12:31, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruno Marchal 
>>>> via<http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1311182&ctx=mail>
>>>>  googlegroups.com
>>>> 4:53 AM (2 hours ago)
>>>>   to everything-list
>>>>   On 27 Oct 2013, at 23:26, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is derived from PA both the universes and the Metaverse.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How?
>>>>
>>>> Richard: I say how in the abstract of the second paper. The Calabi-Yau
>>>> compact manifolds are numerable based on observed monotonic variation of
>>>> the fine structure constant across the visible universe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fact that something is enumerable does not entail that you can
>>>> derive it from PA, nor that it is a necessary part of physics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >It seems also that you believe in a computable universe, but that
>>>> cannot be the case if our
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >(generalized) brain is computable.
>>>>
>>>> Richard: That does not make sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If my brain is Turing emulable, and if I am in some state S, whatever
>>>> will happen to me is determined by *all* computations going through the
>>>> state S (or equivalent). Our first person indeterminacy domain is an
>>>> infinite and non computable set of  computations. The indeterminacy domain
>>>> is not computable because we cannot recognize our 1p in 3p-computations
>>>> (like the one done by the UD).
>>>> Please take a look at the detailed explanation in the sane04 paper. You
>>>> need only the first seven steps of the UDA, which does not presuppose any
>>>> special knowledge.
>>>> It gives to any fundamental physics some non computable features. Keep
>>>> in mind that the computable  is somehow strictly included in the provable
>>>> (by universal machine) strictly included in truth.
>>>> Computable is Turing equivalent with sigma_1 provable, but arithmetical
>>>> truth is given by the union of all sigma_i, for i = 0, 1, 2, 3, ... (this
>>>> needs a bit of theoretical computer science).
>>>>
>>>> Note that we cannot derive the existence of matter in arithmetic, but
>>>> we can, and with comp we must (by UDA) derive the machine's belief in
>>>> matter. machines lives in arithmetic, but matter lives in the machines'
>>>> dream which "cohere enough" (to be short).
>>>> If it happens that the machines dream do *not* cohere enough to
>>>> percolate into physical realities, then comp is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> By the UDA, and classical logic, you get the physical certainty, by the
>>>> true sigma_1 arithmetical sentences (the UD-accessible states), which are
>>>> provable (true in all consistent extensions) and consistent (such
>>>> accessible consistent extensions have to exist). That's basically, for all
>>>> p sigma_1 (= "ExP(x") for some P decidable arithmetical formula)
>>>> beweisbar('p') & ~beweisbar('~p') & p. The operator for that, let us write
>>>> it "[]", provides a quantum logic, by the application of "[]<>p". This
>>>> gives a quantization of arithmetic due to the fact, introspectively
>>>> deducible by all universal machines, that we cannot really know who we are
>>>> and which computations and universal numbers sustain us. Below our
>>>> substitution level, things *have* to become a bit fuzzy, non clonable, non
>>>> computable, indeterminate.
>>>>
>>>> In fact this answers a question asked by Wheeler, and on which Gödel
>>>> said only that the question makes no sense and is even indecent! The
>>>> question was "would there be a relationship between incompleteness and
>>>> Heisenberg uncertainties?"
>>>>
>>>> There is no direct derivation of Heisenberg uncertainty from
>>>> incompleteness, as that would be indecent indeed, but assuming comp and
>>>> understanding the FPI, you can intuit why the fuzziness has to emerge from
>>>> inside the digital/arithmetic, below or at our substitution level, and the
>>>> math of self-reference gives a quick way to get the propositional logic of
>>>> that "universal physics" (deducible by all correct computationalist UMs).
>>>>
>>>> And there is the Solovay gifts, which are theorems which show that
>>>> incompleteness split those logics,. That is useful for distinguishing the
>>>> true part of that physics from the part that the machine can (still
>>>> introspectively) deduces. Some intensional nuances, like the "[]" above,
>>>> inherit the split, some like the Bp & p does not, and facts of that type
>>>> can help to delineate the quanta from the qualia, but also the terrestrial
>>>> (temporal) from the divine (atemporal).
>>>>
>>>> Assuming comp, elementary machine's theology and physics becomes
>>>> elementary arithmetic, relativized by the universal machine's point of
>>>> view. It makes physics invariant for the choice of the universal system
>>>> chosen to describe the phi_i, the W_i, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Comp suggests to extend Everett on the universal quantum wave on
>>>> arithmetic and the universal machines dreams.  The wavy aspect being
>>>> explained by the self-embedding in arithmetic. Comp entails a sort of
>>>> self-diffraction.
>>>>
>>>> No problem trying to get the fundamental physics from observation, and
>>>> indeed that will help for the comparison.  The approach here keep the 1/p
>>>> 3/p distinctions all along, and in that sense proposes a new formulation,
>>>> and ways to consider, the mind-body problem (in which I am interested and
>>>> is the main motivation for interviewing the antic, the contemporaries and
>>>> the universal numbers :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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