Bruno, I do not use religion in a pejorative sense. Actually I am a Hindu. (At least I was until I got kicked out of the Muktananda Ashram) And so I am religiously in agreement with physical reality being an illusion.

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However, I am also a physicist and my string cosmology goes against my religion. As a physicist I am an Aristotelian, but not one who discounts the supernatural. So I am pleased to finally understand why I cannot understand you. And I must say that I appreciate your polite and truthful responses esp compared to Quentins "and a chicken is a dog" sham response. Richard PS: I originally said that the CY manifolds were numerable meaning that they can be numbered. Is that incorrect usage? On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2013, at 03:41, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > So matter is just maya-illusion. > > > Yes. That's the result. UDA shows that if we can survive with a digital > brain, by virtue of its infomation handling power (and not some magic), > then matter is only appearance in the mind of some (relative) numbers. > That's the key point. > > > That is really religion- right? > > > Hmm... The tone used here makes me suspecting that you are using > "religion" in some pejorative sense. > But yes it is theology. I insist on this almost at the start: comp is the > belief in a form of technological reincarnation, and as such, cannot be > justified rationally. We have to bet.. But we can do that bet from > evidences (nature exploits replacement all the times, the known laws are > all Turing emulable, etc.). > > It means also that if a scientist says "science as shown that we are > machine", that scientist is a pseudo-scientist, or a pseudo-priest, or some > con who want steal your money. > Comp is "yes doctor", and it entails the right to say "No, doctor". > > Comp makes number theology the most fundamental science unifying all the > others. Indeed. > > Of course today's theology has not yet come back to the academy, and > institutionalized theologies are politicized and used to control people. We > are still in an era where we tolerated authoritative arguments in religion > (and other human sciences), where actually it is the place where such > arguments are the most wrong possible. > > The enlightenment period was half-enlightenment. All sciences go through, > except the most fundamental one: theology. Theology has been scientific > only with the Greeks, Chinese and Indian. In Occident it is still a taboo. > > I like to say: bad faith fears reason, bad reason fears faith. > > Bruno > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> >> 2013/10/28 Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com> >> >>> Bruno: The fact that something is enumerable does not entail that you >>> can derive it from PA, nor that it is a necessary part of physics. >>> >>> Richard: You got it backwards. The CY Compact manifolds are the machine >>> that computes because they are enumerable. It derives everything else. In >>> particular the Metaverse machine derives the universe big bang and the >>> universe CY machine. I cannot say what derives the Metaverse machine >>> >>> Bruno: Note that we cannot derive the existence of matter in >>> arithmetic, but we can, and with comp we must (by UDA) derive the machine's >>> belief in matter. machines lives in arithmetic, but matter lives in the >>> machines' dream which "cohere enough" (to be short). >>> If it happens that the machines dream do *not* cohere enough to >>> percolate into physical realities, then comp is wrong. >>> >>> Richard: Is this an admission that physical realities exist outside of >>> comp? >>> >> >> No, matter is an appearance hence the use of "machine's belief in >> matter". There is no primary matter (assuming comp). >> >> >>> That's what it sounds like. And I thought that comp derived physical >>> realities. If it does not do that, what good is it? >>> >>> Bruno: Assuming comp, elementary machine's theology and physics becomes >>> elementary arithmetic, relativized by the universal machine's point of >>> view. It makes physics invariant for the choice of the universal system >>> chosen to describe the phi_i, the W_i, etc. >>> >>> Richard: Here you seem to contradict you previous statement that comp >>> cannot derive matter. Please forgive my confusion. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 12:31, Richard Ruquist wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Bruno Marchal >>>> via<http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1311182&ctx=mail> >>>> googlegroups.com >>>> 4:53 AM (2 hours ago) >>>> to everything-list >>>> On 27 Oct 2013, at 23:26, Richard Ruquist wrote: >>>> >>>> It is derived from PA both the universes and the Metaverse. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How? >>>> >>>> Richard: I say how in the abstract of the second paper. The Calabi-Yau >>>> compact manifolds are numerable based on observed monotonic variation of >>>> the fine structure constant across the visible universe. >>>> >>>> >>>> The fact that something is enumerable does not entail that you can >>>> derive it from PA, nor that it is a necessary part of physics. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >It seems also that you believe in a computable universe, but that >>>> cannot be the case if our >>>> >>>> >>>> >(generalized) brain is computable. >>>> >>>> Richard: That does not make sense. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If my brain is Turing emulable, and if I am in some state S, whatever >>>> will happen to me is determined by *all* computations going through the >>>> state S (or equivalent). Our first person indeterminacy domain is an >>>> infinite and non computable set of computations. The indeterminacy domain >>>> is not computable because we cannot recognize our 1p in 3p-computations >>>> (like the one done by the UD). >>>> Please take a look at the detailed explanation in the sane04 paper. You >>>> need only the first seven steps of the UDA, which does not presuppose any >>>> special knowledge. >>>> It gives to any fundamental physics some non computable features. Keep >>>> in mind that the computable is somehow strictly included in the provable >>>> (by universal machine) strictly included in truth. >>>> Computable is Turing equivalent with sigma_1 provable, but arithmetical >>>> truth is given by the union of all sigma_i, for i = 0, 1, 2, 3, ... (this >>>> needs a bit of theoretical computer science). >>>> >>>> Note that we cannot derive the existence of matter in arithmetic, but >>>> we can, and with comp we must (by UDA) derive the machine's belief in >>>> matter. machines lives in arithmetic, but matter lives in the machines' >>>> dream which "cohere enough" (to be short). >>>> If it happens that the machines dream do *not* cohere enough to >>>> percolate into physical realities, then comp is wrong. >>>> >>>> By the UDA, and classical logic, you get the physical certainty, by the >>>> true sigma_1 arithmetical sentences (the UD-accessible states), which are >>>> provable (true in all consistent extensions) and consistent (such >>>> accessible consistent extensions have to exist). That's basically, for all >>>> p sigma_1 (= "ExP(x") for some P decidable arithmetical formula) >>>> beweisbar('p') & ~beweisbar('~p') & p. The operator for that, let us write >>>> it "[]", provides a quantum logic, by the application of "[]<>p". This >>>> gives a quantization of arithmetic due to the fact, introspectively >>>> deducible by all universal machines, that we cannot really know who we are >>>> and which computations and universal numbers sustain us. Below our >>>> substitution level, things *have* to become a bit fuzzy, non clonable, non >>>> computable, indeterminate. >>>> >>>> In fact this answers a question asked by Wheeler, and on which GĂ¶del >>>> said only that the question makes no sense and is even indecent! The >>>> question was "would there be a relationship between incompleteness and >>>> Heisenberg uncertainties?" >>>> >>>> There is no direct derivation of Heisenberg uncertainty from >>>> incompleteness, as that would be indecent indeed, but assuming comp and >>>> understanding the FPI, you can intuit why the fuzziness has to emerge from >>>> inside the digital/arithmetic, below or at our substitution level, and the >>>> math of self-reference gives a quick way to get the propositional logic of >>>> that "universal physics" (deducible by all correct computationalist UMs). >>>> >>>> And there is the Solovay gifts, which are theorems which show that >>>> incompleteness split those logics,. That is useful for distinguishing the >>>> true part of that physics from the part that the machine can (still >>>> introspectively) deduces. Some intensional nuances, like the "[]" above, >>>> inherit the split, some like the Bp & p does not, and facts of that type >>>> can help to delineate the quanta from the qualia, but also the terrestrial >>>> (temporal) from the divine (atemporal). >>>> >>>> Assuming comp, elementary machine's theology and physics becomes >>>> elementary arithmetic, relativized by the universal machine's point of >>>> view. It makes physics invariant for the choice of the universal system >>>> chosen to describe the phi_i, the W_i, etc. >>>> >>>> Comp suggests to extend Everett on the universal quantum wave on >>>> arithmetic and the universal machines dreams. The wavy aspect being >>>> explained by the self-embedding in arithmetic. Comp entails a sort of >>>> self-diffraction. >>>> >>>> No problem trying to get the fundamental physics from observation, and >>>> indeed that will help for the comparison. The approach here keep the 1/p >>>> 3/p distinctions all along, and in that sense proposes a new formulation, >>>> and ways to consider, the mind-body problem (in which I am interested and >>>> is the main motivation for interviewing the antic, the contemporaries and >>>> the universal numbers :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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