On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:36 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 26 November 2013 19:41, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:29 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 26 November 2013 15:17, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Most people wouldn't feel deprived if they weren't allowed to play
>>>> hockey, or go scuba diving, or take LSD, but if you are one of those people
>>>> who likes playing hockey, or going scuba diving, or take LSD, you certainly
>>>> would feel deprived if what you wanted to have or do was made illegal.
>>> I didn't say it should be made illegal. I just said it's odd so many
>>> people are, ahem, up in arms about something that in most countries is, as
>>> you say, on a par with skating or SCUBA diving - i.e. a minority interest.
>> It may be an interest that is held by a minority, but it is by no means a
>> minor issue.  It is a right protected in the Constitution in the same sense
>> as right to free speech or to a trial.  Would people in most countries not
>> be upset to see what are perceived as constitutionally protected liberties
>> be curtailed?
> I'm more surprised that people WANT to own guns, I'm not suggesting they
> should be banned.

To each his own.  Some people live in rural areas where the police response
times might be very high, and they can't necessary rely on others to for
their protection.

> Although having better background checks might help.

There already are background checks.  Criminals already bypass them by
stealing them, using straw purchasers or making their own.

> (That Lee Harvey Oswald, for example...)

See http://22november1963.org.uk/oswald-guilty-or-not-guilty

Some of the conspirators have confessed including E Howard Hunt:

And David Sanches Morales:

former attorney Robert Walton, who quoted Morales as having said, "I was in
Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got
the little bastard"

>> In the history of genocides you will find that gun registration and
>> confiscation is an almost universal precursor to genocides and democides.
>> Which is why I'm not in favour of banning guns, but I'm also not keen on
> just anyone

If you have been convicted of a felony, been in a mental institution in the
previous 5 years, or are addicted to drugs, you are not allowed to buy or
possess a gun in the U.S.  See: http://usgovinfo.about.com/blnoguns.htm

being able to purchase a semi-automatic weapon

Are you aware of the distinction between manual, semiautomatic and fully
automatic weapons?  Are you okay with people buying pump action rifles,
double-action revolvers or bolt action rifles without background checks?

> with inadequate background checks. It's legal to own guns here in New
> Zealand (and in most countries) but we don't have the level of gun
> ownership *or* gun violence of the USA,

As in the link I sent to John Mikes, international studies have shown the
two (rates of ownership and violence) are not correlated, and are possibly

> so it seems to me you guys have gone way overboard. And then make straw
> man arguments (like that video) presumably to claim that you are the ones
> being normal,

How is it a straw man?  They cited numerous cases where governments
disarmed the populace before it could get away with the most heinous
abuses.  I can cite several examples where dictators as a first order of
business made private ownership of guns a crime punishable by death.

> and all the other countries where guns are legal but ownership is more
> subject to scrutiny are somehow not as "free". I mean, "gun registration"
> is the law in most countries (are you saying it isn't in the US?)

Registration is not the norm here.  It is strongly resisted because it is
seen as a precursor to confiscation.

> and you've somehow conflated it with confiscation; which is a straw man.

How is it a straw man?  If there is any empty argument it is that
registration is necessary for public safety which is a non sequitur.


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