On 12/2/2013 12:46 PM, LizR wrote:
On 3 December 2013 09:40, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:


    On 12/2/2013 8:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
    I'm sorry but we will have to agree we disagree on that. You're also 
misleading
    atheistic position, and you're wrongly attributing "belief" to atheist 
people
    (especially belgians)... I'm belgian, I'm not a materialist, I consider 
myself
    atheist in regards of religions, and that's what most atheist means when 
they say
    they are atheist.


    Call it "ultimate reality".  It is OK, until you grasp enough of comp to 
see that
    this rings a bit faulty.

    There is no problem to call it "ultimate reality", as long as you are open 
it might
    have "personal" aspects, and have no prejudice on wht that "ultimate 
reality" can
    be (with this or that hypothesis).

    Then you should have no prejudice toward accepting matter as the possible 
"ultimate
    reality".  It too might have personal aspect.

I believe Bruno's only "prejudice" about this is he thinks it leads to a 
contradiction.

No, he agrees that matter is necessary and he only objects to it being considered *fundamental*, because he thinks it is already explained by arithmetical computation and because he thinks it cannot explain some aspects of consciousness.

But then he gives computationalism and theology lots of leeway for not 
explaining things.

Brent

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