On 12/3/2013 1:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 21:52, LizR wrote:
On 3 December 2013 09:49, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
2013/12/2 LizR <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
On 3 December 2013 09:40, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 12/2/2013 8:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
I'm sorry but we will have to agree we disagree on that. You're also
misleading atheistic position, and you're wrongly attributing
"belief" to
atheist people (especially belgians)... I'm belgian, I'm not a
materialist, I consider myself atheist in regards of religions, and
that's what most atheist means when they say they are atheist.
Call it "ultimate reality". It is OK, until you grasp enough of
comp to
see that this rings a bit faulty.
There is no problem to call it "ultimate reality", as long as you
are open
it might have "personal" aspects, and have no prejudice on wht that
"ultimate reality" can be (with this or that hypothesis).
Then you should have no prejudice toward accepting matter as the
possible
"ultimate reality". It too might have personal aspect.
I believe Bruno's only "prejudice" about this is he thinks it leads to a
contradiction.
Assuming computationalism...
I was taking that as read. But yes, Bruno also thinks that if you don't assume
computationalism, you have to adopt a supernatural stance towards consciousness, and I
imagine he's prejudiced against /that!/
If you don't assume computationalism you have to adopt a supernatural stance towards
"Matter". (That's the point), and on consciousness.
I don't understand what definition of 'supernatural' you're using? Are you simply saying
that if X is taken as fundamental, and therefore unexplained, then X is supernatural? So
long as matter is something we can manipulate I don't see how it can be considered
supernatural (c.f. Dr. Johnson).
Generally I see the natural/supernatural distinction as admitting a large grey area
between black and white. Planets were once supposed to be "supernatural" beings, i.e.
they were immortal and lived above the sphere of corruption in heaven. When they were
found to obey fairly simple, precise laws of motion, they became part of nature. I expect
the same will happen with human consciousness. It seems mysterious and inexplicable by
physics now - but it may not always be so.
Brent
But even with computationalism, about consciousness, you can't avoid some amount of
magic when you get reconnected or when you feel so. You get bits of information, you
select realities, and you are aware of that. Consciousness will be "obviously true" only
on the conjunction of the believed and truth, but *that* consciousness remains invariant
for local change or distortion of belief unrelated with the most probable truth" (like
in a dream).
It makes the relation between machines and truth quite non-trivial.
Bruno
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything
List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything
List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
[email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
