On 12/3/2013 1:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 02 Dec 2013, at 21:52, LizR wrote:

On 3 December 2013 09:49, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com <mailto:allco...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    2013/12/2 LizR <lizj...@gmail.com <mailto:lizj...@gmail.com>>

        On 3 December 2013 09:40, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
        <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

            On 12/2/2013 8:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
            I'm sorry but we will have to agree we disagree on that. You're also
            misleading atheistic position, and you're wrongly attributing 
"belief" to
            atheist people (especially belgians)... I'm belgian, I'm not a
            materialist, I consider myself atheist in regards of religions, and
            that's what most atheist means when they say they are atheist.


            Call it "ultimate reality".  It is OK, until you grasp enough of 
comp to
            see that this rings a bit faulty.

            There is no problem to call it "ultimate reality", as long as you 
are open
            it might have "personal" aspects, and have no prejudice on wht that
            "ultimate reality" can be (with this or that hypothesis).

            Then you should have no prejudice toward accepting matter as the 
possible
            "ultimate reality".  It too might have personal aspect.

        I believe Bruno's only "prejudice" about this is he thinks it leads to a
        contradiction.


    Assuming computationalism...

I was taking that as read. But yes, Bruno also thinks that if you don't assume computationalism, you have to adopt a supernatural stance towards consciousness, and I imagine he's prejudiced against /that!/

If you don't assume computationalism you have to adopt a supernatural stance towards "Matter". (That's the point), and on consciousness.

I don't understand what definition of 'supernatural' you're using? Are you simply saying that if X is taken as fundamental, and therefore unexplained, then X is supernatural? So long as matter is something we can manipulate I don't see how it can be considered supernatural (c.f. Dr. Johnson).

Generally I see the natural/supernatural distinction as admitting a large grey area between black and white. Planets were once supposed to be "supernatural" beings, i.e. they were immortal and lived above the sphere of corruption in heaven. When they were found to obey fairly simple, precise laws of motion, they became part of nature. I expect the same will happen with human consciousness. It seems mysterious and inexplicable by physics now - but it may not always be so.

Brent


But even with computationalism, about consciousness, you can't avoid some amount of magic when you get reconnected or when you feel so. You get bits of information, you select realities, and you are aware of that. Consciousness will be "obviously true" only on the conjunction of the believed and truth, but *that* consciousness remains invariant for local change or distortion of belief unrelated with the most probable truth" (like in a dream).
It makes the relation between machines and truth quite non-trivial.

Bruno





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