Terren,

No, it's not that simple as I thought I had explained. You have to consider 
not just what is happening in the simulated being's 'mind' or simulation 
but the whole context of the simulation. I'll try again. Even if a 
simulated world is entirely convincing in the short term it still MUST 
exist in the actual reality, and if it is not in accordance with the actual 
logic of that actual reality it will quickly or eventually fail. The real 
being must exist somewhere else and be receiving nutrients etc. in a real 
actual reality with which it is in logical synch with.

Thus you can't have just any old arbitrary fake simulation running or the 
simulated being will quickly die in the real actual reality in which it 
MUST have an actual existence. So there will always be a way to tell if the 
reality you live in is simulated or not. If you actually exist then at 
least the basics must be in accord with actual reality.

Of course, as you suggest, there are many non-essential ways a simulation 
can be wrong and the subject still function, but no essential ones. No 
matter how simulated an internal reality is it still must exist in a real 
actual reality and this will always eventually give a false simulation away 
when it is tested against actual reality by the test of whether it is 
consistent with the continued existence and functioning of the subject.

Edgar

On Monday, January 13, 2014 2:48:25 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> Edgar,
>
> A simulation can be utterly precise and impossible to distinguish from 
> sensory data, in principle. You seem to be ignoring that by your own theory 
> it is possible to simulate the logic of external reality precisely, as that 
> is what you are positing happens at a fundamental level. 
>
> I am asking why does a single computational reality need to be 
> fundamental?  How could you tell in principle if the universe was being 
> computed through Ontological Energy (whatever that means in a formal 
> sense), vs being a simulation run by an alien in a different universe?
>
> The Church Turing thesis proves that you cannot tell the difference. And 
> because there are provably infinite different simulations that could 
> emulate your consciousness, assuming comp (yes, doctor), by the UDA all of 
> them must contribute to your experience of reality, making it uncomputable. 
>
> You can stick your head in the sand and say it doesn't apply, but that is 
> not an argument. Until you start addressing questions head on, rather than 
> ignoring them or dismissing them insultingly (e.g. adolescent sci-fi), 
> nobody here is going to take you all that seriously. And if you don't care 
> about being taken seriously, then why are you here? 
>
> Answer this question head-on and you won't lose me:
>
> How do you justify the move of using the phenomenal experience of the 
> present moment as "obvious" direct evidence of P-time, when you also state 
> that our phenomenal experience is an illusory construction of "external 
> reality", whatever that is?
>
> If you can answer that question without mere hand waving, then you 
> probably also have a valid rebuttal to those who are arguing against your 
> dismissal of block time. So it would be worth your while to answer it... 
> two birds, one stone.  I await your answer.
>
> Hoping for the best...
> Terren
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> Terren,
>>
>> I just explained how it is possible to tell if your particular simulation 
>> is accurate or not. The fact of your continued existence. If it didn't 
>> accurately model the logic of external reality you wouldn't be here. The 
>> 'Matrix' scenario that you can't distinguish between all possible 
>> simulations is adolescent irrational sci fi BS. And if you recall, even in 
>> the Matrix they COULD tell which was real and which wasn't.
>>
>> If your simulation was seriously inaccurate you wouldn't be here to tell 
>> me I couldn't tell....
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:58:13 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>
>>> Edgar,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Terren,
>>>>
>>>> Don't tell me what's in my theory. There are NO infinity of logical 
>>>> realities being computed. There is no Platonia....
>>>>
>>>
>>> If what you're positing is a fundamental computational reality, then 
>>> there's nothing in principle that can select a single computational reality 
>>> over any other. All you appear to be doing is making that an assumption of 
>>> your theory, but it doesn't really buy you anything and it contradicts 
>>> computer science.  Sounds exactly like the argument over P-Time and Block 
>>> time... what a coincidence!
>>>  
>>>
>>>> You seem to be referencing Bruno's comp. There is NO 'Platonia' in my 
>>>> theory.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right, and because Platonia is logically implied given (what appear to 
>>> be) your assumptions, it signifies that your theory is inconsistent.
>>>  
>>>
>>>> There is enormous evidence and theoretical justification for Present 
>>>> moment P-time. It's the most fundamental obvious observation of our 
>>>> existence. Just pull your head out of your books and look around for 
>>>> goodness sakes. Are you alive? If so you are alive in the present moment...
>>>>
>>>
>>> But you have pointed out that every observation we can make is based on 
>>> a constructed illusion. How do you go from the time we experience in the 
>>> constructed illusion of our experience, to the actual time of the universe? 
>>>  You have yet to justify that move.
>>>  
>>>
>>>> No two observers compute the same retinal sky. Everyone's simulation of 
>>>> reality is different.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed.  But there are an infinity of possible programs that compute 
>>> your retinal sky in this moment such that it would be impossible for you to 
>>> distinguish between them, from the inside. That fact has nothing to do with 
>>> my retinal sky, or anyone else's.
>>>  
>>>
>>>> There is absolute certain evidence for "real, actual reality". 
>>>>
>>>
>>> Evidence for reality only makes sense within a given theory. All we have 
>>> are models. What we are all doing here is a search for "the best" model. 
>>> Even if we think we have it, we can still never know what reality really 
>>> is. IOW there is no such thing as "absolute certain evidence" for anything. 
>>> You're engaging in dogma, as if there is only one possible model.
>>>  
>>>
>>>> Something has to be real because we exist, and what we exist in is 
>>>> reality. Whatever that is is the "real, actual reality". Anyone who 
>>>> doesn't 
>>>> think reality actually exists is brain dead....
>>>>
>>>
>>> You seem to be saying that our existence is a fact that refutes the 
>>> possibility that we are, as Bruno describes it, "the numbers' dreams". And 
>>> while that *is* counter-intuitive, it's not a logical impossibility - on 
>>> the contrary, if you say yes to the doctor, it must be the case, unless 
>>> there is a flaw with the UDA. 
>>>
>>> Terren
>>>  
>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:17:03 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Edgar,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Terren,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no "infinity of simulations". We are talking about actual 
>>>>>> reality rather than sci fi fantasy here, or at least we should be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that your knowledge of reality necessarily comes from your own 
>>>>> mental simulation of it, it's not clear how you can be so sure about what 
>>>>> "actual reality" is. I understand you have a theory, but that's all any 
>>>>> of 
>>>>> us have. We can rule theories out when contradicted by evidence, but you 
>>>>> haven't provided that, unless you count various hand-waving statements.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> Every biological organism has one and only one internal mental 
>>>>>> simulation of its external reality environment. This whole system, 
>>>>>> external 
>>>>>> world simulated by the minds of multiple biological observers, actually 
>>>>>> consists only of computational information flows in the presence and 
>>>>>> logical space of reality. Everything, including ourselves, is analogous 
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> running, interacting software programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with that. However in the logical, computational space you 
>>>>> anchor your theory in (something referred to on this list sometimes as 
>>>>> Platonia), there are an infinity of such "logical realities" that go 
>>>>> through your current computational state. From your first-person 
>>>>> perspective you cannot predict which of the infinite continuations you 
>>>>> will 
>>>>> inhabit in the next moment.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> The apparent physicality of reality in the minds of biological 
>>>>>> organisms is an evolutionary adaptation to make reality seem more 
>>>>>> meaningful and easier to function within. This physicality is not real, 
>>>>>> it's an internal mental illusion. I devote the entire Part IV of my book 
>>>>>> dissecting this illusion and explaining how it works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I agree, and this is an important insight. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>  The book also explains in detail how once we identify and subtract 
>>>>>> everything mind adds to reality we arrive at what reality actually is, 
>>>>>> pure 
>>>>>> information computationally evolving in the logical space of reality I 
>>>>>> call 
>>>>>> ontological energy. When we peel back all the various layers of 
>>>>>> physicality 
>>>>>> that mind adds to external reality its remaining purely abstract 
>>>>>> information structure is clearly revealed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I think your theory fails because it insists on a single, 
>>>>> fundamental computational universe, running in "P-time", for which there 
>>>>> is 
>>>>> no evidence or theoretical justification (none that you have provided, 
>>>>> anyway). I know you point relentlessly to our everyday experience of 
>>>>> present-moments, but using introspection as evidence is problematic 
>>>>> precisely because as you have pointed out, our subjective reality is 
>>>>> based 
>>>>> on an illusion constructed in the mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Going from Ontological Energy to Platonia is the same move as going 
>>>>> from P-Time to Block Time. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> We all live in a world that is actually almost entirely a construct 
>>>>>> of our mental simulations of an external information reality. Thus when 
>>>>>> we 
>>>>>> look out into the world we are mostly looking into the structures of our 
>>>>>> own minds. We live inside our minds under what I call the 'retinal sky'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Retinal sky is a good term. Imagine how many different kinds of 
>>>>> programs could compute the same retinal sky for any given moment. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as robots function within environments they simulate internally 
>>>>>> with computations, so do all biological organisms including ourselves. 
>>>>>> We 
>>>>>> do no 'see' the real actual world, we compute internal models of it and 
>>>>>> live within those.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, and this is why it is so unclear as to how you can be so 
>>>>> certain about what constitutes the "real actual world". Do you have 
>>>>> access 
>>>>> to some kind of oracle?
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is only these internal biological simulations that there is any 
>>>>>> evidence for. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, if you could only turn such statements inward on your own 
>>>>> theories, I think it would be much easier for your ideas to gain traction.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no evidence of any 'matrix' type simulations. That's just 
>>>>>> adolescent sci fi unless there is some actual evidence. Again I went 
>>>>>> through that sci fi phase back in the 1960's in a short story i wrote on 
>>>>>> the same theme titled "The Livies". Let's stick to evidence based 
>>>>>> reality 
>>>>>> rather than sci fi...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By your own admission above there is no evidence for the "real, actual 
>>>>> reality" you've articulated either. It all looks like sci-fi to the naive 
>>>>> realist. If we dismissed theories on the basis of weirdness, we would 
>>>>> have 
>>>>> tossed QM out the window a century ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Terren
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, January 10, 2014 1:05:29 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That begs the question. You start by assuming reality is computed, 
>>>>>>> and then conclude that because reality exists, reality must be computed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again I will point out that except for one key difference, your 
>>>>>>> ideas and Bruno's are actually pretty similar. The difference of course 
>>>>>>> being that the UDA entails that there are an infinity of computed 
>>>>>>> realities. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me approach this from a different direction. Given that you 
>>>>>>> agree that you could be digitally replaced and not notice the 
>>>>>>> difference, 
>>>>>>> this also entails that you could be placed into a simulation, where 
>>>>>>> your 
>>>>>>> simulated brain is functionally identical to your real brain or the 
>>>>>>> prosthetic brain that could replace it with you noticing. So a 
>>>>>>> simulation 
>>>>>>> of you embedded in a simulated world is also conscious - this is more 
>>>>>>> or 
>>>>>>> less what your theory of consciousness says. The next step is to see 
>>>>>>> that 
>>>>>>> there are an infinity of possible simulations that contain your current 
>>>>>>> brain state, and thus your consciousness, in this moment (or any given 
>>>>>>> moment). 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're still with me we can go back to the UDA, which in so many 
>>>>>>> words says that all of these infinite simulations exist in Platonia, 
>>>>>>> traced 
>>>>>>> by the Universal Dovetailer (a rather simple program) - and your moment 
>>>>>>> by 
>>>>>>> moment reality is a view from the inside of the infinity of simulations 
>>>>>>> that contain you. Indeed, physics and the physical world in general 
>>>>>>> represent a stable measure on the kinds of worlds that could support 
>>>>>>> your 
>>>>>>> consciousness. But because the infinity of simulations is necessarily 
>>>>>>> what 
>>>>>>> renders the physical world, it is not computable. That is the 
>>>>>>> contradiction 
>>>>>>> entailed by a computational universe such as you elaborate in your 
>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your objection about human math and reality math, I believe, is an 
>>>>>>> attempt to refute step 8 of the UDA - that is usually the most 
>>>>>>> problematic 
>>>>>>> step for people who don't agree with the UDA. It would be very 
>>>>>>> interesting 
>>>>>>> if you could identify a flaw in the UDA, supported by arguments rather 
>>>>>>> than 
>>>>>>> simple assertion, as you have done to this point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Terren
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to show 
>>>>>>>> it doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. If you even 
>>>>>>>> assume 
>>>>>>>> a computational universe in the first place you have to assume (you 
>>>>>>>> are 
>>>>>>>> assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality exists is 
>>>>>>>> conclusive proof.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number of 
>>>>>>>>>> occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. What 
>>>>>>>>>> more 
>>>>>>>>>> convincing proof could there be?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure 
>>>>>>>>>> nonsense that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of 
>>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain 
>>>>>>>>> conclusions. If the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then the 
>>>>>>>>> correct response is to throw out the original assumptions as invalid. 
>>>>>>>>> Bruno 
>>>>>>>>> starts from the assumption that consciousness is a form of 
>>>>>>>>> computation and 
>>>>>>>>> draws certain inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what the 
>>>>>>>>> argument shows, given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it is 
>>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>>> show that one of the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw in 
>>>>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>>>> reasoning that leads to the conclusions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  -- 
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