On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:37, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

Liz,

If your question is whether or not it is possible to determine whether we are living in a matrix type simulation I believe it is because we would not just be living in the simulation but in the entire reality in which the simulation is being produced. Thus given human level intelligence, and human level capability to explore reality, the simulated being should be able to discover cues that give the simulation away.

Since we can determine the curvature of the space we live in without seeing it from the outside (angles of triangles) we should be able to determine the nature of any simulation we lived in as well.

Because there is NO evidence whatsoever that we do live in a simulation,

False, there are plenty evidences that we live in the canonical simulation (which does not depend on the ontology). All verified quantum propositional propositions provides such evidence. It explains the quantum aspect of the physical reality. You are *assuming* it.



AND the fact that it's an enormously non-parsimonious theory that adds an entire new level of reality inhabited by super beings with completely unlikely technologies on top of a universe which is already plenty complex, it is incredibly unlikely that we do live in a simulation, and absent any evidence at all for it I at least think it's a waste of time to give much thought to it no matter how 'cool' it might seem to sci fi fans.

If we assume comp, we don't even need evidences, except for *testing* comp. And up to now, all evidence are that we are in a simulation, even in *the* emulation (not done by our descendants, but by the bottom ontology of the comp theory (which is given by any universal number, like Robinson arithmetic for example).

Then by the dream argument (or UDA step 6), there are no evidences, nor can there be possibly anyone, that we are not in a simulation, also.

Bruno





Edgar



On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:27:45 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Liz,

See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It answers this question...

Actually to answer your question properly you have to define 'person', what you mean by an 'AI' and what you mean by a 'simulation'. In the details of those definitions will be your answer... It's arbitrary and ill formed as asked....

Yeah, unlike waffle about "it's really real because it's real in the real actual world, really, because I say so" (insert eye-rolling emoticon here)

OK, let's say we simulate you in a virtual world. Or, to get a particular scenario, let's assume some aliens with advanced technology turned up last night and scanned your body, and created a computer model of it. We won't worry about subtleties like substitution levels and whether "you" are actually duplicated in the process. It's enough for the present discussion that the simulated Edgar feels it's you, believes it's you, thinks its you, and appears to have a body like yours which it can move around, just as you do, in a world just like the one you're living in (they have also modelled the Earth and its surroundings. Using nanotechnology they can do all this inside a relatively small space). The simulated Edgar will think just like you, assuming your thoughts are, in fact, the product of computation in your brain, and it has your memories, because the aliens were able to model the part of your brain that stores them.

So, sim-Edgar wakes up the next morning and believes himself to be earth-Edgar.

Would he know, or discover at some point, that he's a simulation in a virtual world, and if so, how?


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