On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:44, LizR wrote:
On 15 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote:
condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1...
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
Liz,
See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It
answers this question...
Actually to answer your question properly you have to define
'person', what you mean by an 'AI' and what you mean by a
'simulation'. In the details of those definitions will be your
answer... It's arbitrary and ill formed as asked....
Yeah, unlike waffle about "it's really real because it's real in
the real actual world, really, because I say so" (insert eye-
rolling emoticon here)
OK, let's say we simulate you in a virtual world. Or, to get a
particular scenario, let's assume some aliens with advanced
technology turned up last night and scanned your body, and created
a computer model of it. We won't worry about subtleties like
substitution levels and whether "you" are actually duplicated in
the process. It's enough for the present discussion that the
simulated Edgar feels it's you, believes it's you, thinks its you,
and appears to have a body like yours which it can move around,
just as you do, in a world just like the one you're living in (they
have also modelled the Earth and its surroundings. Using
nanotechnology they can do all this inside a relatively small
space). The simulated Edgar will think just like you, assuming your
thoughts are, in fact, the product of computation in your brain,
and it has your memories, because the aliens were able to model the
part of your brain that stores them.
So, sim-Edgar wakes up the next morning and believes himself to be
earth-Edgar.
Would he know, or discover at some point, that he's a simulation in
a virtual world, and if so, how?
And the answer is "yes, he would know that, but not immediately".
So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately
see that he is in a simulation, but, unless you intervene repeatedly
on the simulation, or unless you manipulate directly his mind, he
can see that he is in a simulation by comparing the comp physics
("in his head") and the physics in the simulation.
I'm not sure I understand. Suppose the simulation has the same
physics as the (allegedly) real world? Or are you saying that isn't
possible?
Yes, it is not possible. The simulation is the product of finite
program. The "real physics" is brought by the 1p-indeterminacy applied
to an infinity of programs, which are all the universal machines which
makes a computation (or more than one) leading to your current state.
This astonish many people, because they feel that this contradict the
dream argument. But the dream argument only shows that you cannot know
that you are awake. It does not show that you cannot know that you are
dreaming. Same with the simulation. To fail a machine on this needs an
infinite work.
On the subject of interventions, if the Bible is to be believed (and
I have it on good authority that it should :) then we are definitely
living in a simulation, because there were a lot of interventions -
or at least tweaks to the software! - a few thousand years ago.
IF the bible needs to be believed, which I (and you) are doubting, I
hope.
No need of the bible, though, QM, is, for a computationalist a strong
evidence that we are in the "bottom" simulation, made by the TOE
ontology.
Everett, in particular confirms this and the first person plural
nature of physics. That is why I dare to explain the consequence of
comp: physicists have already found the most starling one (the MW).
The simulation is locally finite, and the comp-physics is
necessarily infinite (it emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on the
whole UD*), so, soon or later, he will bet that he is in a
simulation (or that comp is wrong).
An interesting answer! I wonder what Brent will say.
Yes, and Terren.
How would one experience this - how would I know that I am in a
finite simulation, if it happens to be large enough (maybe it
simulates the Hubble sphere?)
In Simulacron III, by Daniel Galouye, the guy discovers that he is in
a simulation due to some bug in it, and then by being unable to quit
the "city" (as the simulation simulates only one city!).
But such discoveries are not done by only the first person experience
(if that was the case, the dream argument, and step 6, would be
invalid). It is discovered by some work, which basically consists in
testing the comp-physics, which is not entirely simulable. For
example: if you test the random nature of spin, and discover that it
is a pseudo-random, you know that you are not in the comp reality,
(assuming comp => QM exactly), but in a higher level simulation.
Bruno
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