On 15 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1...
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Liz,
>>>
>>> See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It answers
>>> this question...
>>>
>>> Actually to answer your question properly you have to define 'person',
>>> what you mean by an 'AI' and what you mean by a 'simulation'. In the
>>> details of those definitions will be your answer... It's arbitrary and ill
>>> formed as asked....
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, unlike waffle about "it's really real because it's real in the real
>> actual world, really, because I say so" (insert eye-rolling emoticon here)
>>
>> OK, let's say we simulate you in a virtual world. Or, to get a particular
>> scenario, let's assume some aliens with advanced technology turned up last
>> night and scanned your body, and created a computer model of it. We won't
>> worry about subtleties like substitution levels and whether "you" are
>> actually duplicated in the process. It's enough for the present discussion
>> that the simulated Edgar feels it's you, believes it's you, thinks its you,
>> and appears to have a body like yours which it can move around, just as you
>> do, in a world just like the one you're living in (they have also modelled
>> the Earth and its surroundings. Using nanotechnology they can do all this
>> inside a relatively small space). The simulated Edgar will think just like
>> you, assuming your thoughts are, in fact, the product of computation in
>> your brain, and it has your memories, because the aliens were able to model
>> the part of your brain that stores them.
>>
>> So, sim-Edgar wakes up the next morning and believes himself to be
>> earth-Edgar.
>>
>> Would he know, or discover at some point, that he's a simulation in a
>> virtual world, and if so, how?
>>
> And the answer is "yes, he would know that, but not immediately".
>
> So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see
> that he is in a simulation, but, unless you intervene repeatedly on the
> simulation, or unless you manipulate directly his mind, he can see that he
> is in a simulation by comparing the comp physics ("in his head") and the
> physics in the simulation.
>

I'm not sure I understand. Suppose the simulation has the same physics as
the (allegedly) real world? Or are you saying that isn't possible?

On the subject of interventions, if the Bible is to be believed (and I have
it on good authority that it should :) then we are definitely living in a
simulation, because there were a lot of interventions - or at least tweaks
to the software! - a few thousand years ago.


> The simulation is locally finite, and the comp-physics is necessarily
> infinite (it emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on the whole UD*), so, soon
> or later, he will bet that he is in a simulation (or that comp is wrong).
>

An interesting answer! I wonder what Brent will say. How would one
experience this - how would I know that I am in a finite simulation, if it
happens to be large enough (maybe it simulates the Hubble sphere?)

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