Dear Bruno,
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > > You wrote: > "Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is > a winner program, but empirically we can bet that the winner, if it exists, > can emulate a quantum universal machine. But it might be a quantum > universal machine + an oracle, or a quantum machine defined on a ring, etc. > We just still don't know." > > Does the "winner" need to be absolute (over all possible tournaments of > all possible computations) or could there be winners with respect to some > finite tournaments on finite set of computations? > > > > Below your substitution level, there is only one tournaments, and it is > always (by step seven) on *all* computation going through the state of the > Löbian machine doing the prediction. > Is this tournament eternal? Can it be considered to be separable into subtournaments in a relative sense? > > The difference between geographies and physics might depend on the precise > substitution level. > > In fact comp allows us to make precise the difference between physics and > geography, with interetsing slight variants. > > OK. :-) > Bruno > > > > > > > Think: Nash equilibria. > > It seems to me that while there are no Absolute Winners, there can be > "local winners" or "Victors" in tournament between computations in a finite > set of computations that are "interacting" in some way. > > Could this give us a coherent notion of a measure? > > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 17 Jan 2014, at 12:46, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, 17 January 2014, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:00, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> On 1/16/2014 12:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the >>>>>> Intel >>>>>> CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense >>>>>> that a >>>>>> computer can in theory do everything your brain can do is almost >>>>>> certainly >>>>>> correct. It is not that the brain is like a computer, but rather, >>>>>> that a >>>>>> computer can be like almost anything, including your brain or body, or >>>>>> entire planet and all the people on it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>> I think neuroscientists have, over decades, used the computational >>>>> metaphor in too literal a way. It is obviously not true that the brain >>>>> is a digital computer, just as it is not true that the weather is a >>>>> digital computer. But a digital computer can simulate the behaviour of >>>>> any physical process in the universe (if physics is computable), >>>>> >>>> >>>> But Bruno concludes that physics is not computable. So does that imply >>>> one should say "no" to the doctor? >>>> >>> >>> Comp explains that physics is not *entirely* computable, that is we >>> cannot predict all sequences of observations. But that is already the case >>> thanks to QM (with our without Everett). So no worry! >> >> >> Are you referring to quantum indeterminacy? But isn't even that >> computable from a third person perspective, the UDA generating every branch >> of the multiverse? >> >> >> The UD cannot generate a non computable sequence in one branch, or >> through one computation. >> >> But the UD can dovetail on the coupling of one universal number >> multiplied (coupled with) a dovetailing on *all* sequences, making the >> indeterminacy recoverable statistically by the multiplied machines. (cf the >> iterated self-multiplication). >> >> - Computable means generates by one program. >> >> - FPI-recoverable means first person "experienceable" (in the comp usual >> sense) by a machine multiplied into infinity in the UD, or in arithmetic. >> >> Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is a >> winner program, but empirically we can bet that the winner, if it exists, >> can emulate a quantum universal machine. But it might be a quantum >> universal machine + an oracle, or a quantum machine defined on a ring, etc. >> We just still don't know. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> But without Everett, I would perhaps not even have dared to suggest that >>> comp might be true. >>> >>> And yes, the computable aspect of nature, even, with collapse, might >>> eventually be a symptom that comp is false. but up to now, the most >>> startling aspect of the observable reality confirms the most startling >>> asoect of the consequence of computationalism. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> including the behaviour of weather or the human brain. That means >>>>> that, at least, it would be possible to make a philosophical zombie >>>>> using a computer. The only way to avoid this conclusion would be if >>>>> physics, and specifically the physics in the brain, is not computable. >>>>> Pointing out where the non-computable physics is in the brain rarely >>>>> figures on the agenda of the anti-computationalists. And even if there >>>>> is non-computational physics in the brain, that invalidates >>>>> computationalism, but not its superset, functionalism. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > > Kindest Regards, > > Stephen Paul King > > Senior Researcher > > Mobile: (864) 567-3099 > > [email protected] > > http://www.provensecure.us/ > > > “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of > the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain > information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as > attorney work product. 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If you have received this > message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message > immediately.” > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 [email protected] http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
