On 4/13/2014 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 13 Apr 2014, at 01:32, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/12/2014 11:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Apr 2014, at 01:43, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/11/2014 8:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
(2) create new race of beings, smarter and better than us, to explore the
universe.
This is what we do since the beginnings. We are them. The distinction between
artificial and natural is artificial.
I deliberately avoided writing 'artificial beings', but I think they will be
'artificial' in the sense of being deliberately constructed as opposed to developed
just by Darwinian evolution.
OK. I thought so. That is artificial too, actually, and thus natural for creature with
some enough big ego, and which might not be completely wrong in thinking that they
have some partial control, indeed (thanks god!).
"deliberately" involves "free-will". Some might argue if that is so much deliberate,
especially from some 3p big picture. Machines too have a long history. Personally, I
do agree that "deliberate" makes partial sense from our person points of view.
Whatever you call it, it is different from Darwinian evolution.
?
This seems like semantic nit-picking. Because you can't put a "precise frontier" do you
really want to say they are not different?
All right, let us say that after the invention of the ribosomes and DNA-proteines
relation, it is no more Darwinian evolution.
The point is that they were not "inventions". Do you want to obscure the distinction
between invention and random variation?
The rest is deliberate attempt to eat, and mate, through variation of the molecular
means to address such goals.
And deliberate attempts to invent. Specifically, in the case under consideration,
attempts to invent beings that would realize our ideals, but would be suited to travel to
other planets and prosper there.
What is different between the success of a new protein, and a new human tool. The man
tried to get the apple in the tree and eventually use a stick and get it, and then
(perhaps much later) he realize he can strike also the beast going for the apple, etc.
The difference is that one is selected from random variation and the other is invented,
possibly by evaluating, in thought, random ideas of tools. In practice the difference is
that the latter is much faster. Over the last few millenia, cultural and technological
evolution has far outstripped Darwinian evolution.
Brent
Very similar things appear at the molecular level, and at many possible biological
meta-levels.
I am not sure you can put a precise frontier between Darwinism and "free-will". The
Darwinian evolution has selected quickly machines/programs having goals: eating enough,
mating enough, and avoiding being eaten (to much). Then free-will and deliberate action
becomes a matter of will and chance.
Bruno
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