On 13 Apr 2014, at 20:55, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/13/2014 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 13 Apr 2014, at 01:32, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/12/2014 11:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Apr 2014, at 01:43, meekerdb wrote:
On 4/11/2014 8:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
(2) create new race of beings, smarter and better than us, to
explore the universe.
This is what we do since the beginnings. We are them. The
distinction between artificial and natural is artificial.
I deliberately avoided writing 'artificial beings', but I think
they will be 'artificial' in the sense of being deliberately
constructed as opposed to developed just by Darwinian evolution.
OK. I thought so. That is artificial too, actually, and thus
natural for creature with some enough big ego, and which might
not be completely wrong in thinking that they have some partial
control, indeed (thanks god!).
"deliberately" involves "free-will". Some might argue if that is
so much deliberate, especially from some 3p big picture. Machines
too have a long history. Personally, I do agree that "deliberate"
makes partial sense from our person points of view.
Whatever you call it, it is different from Darwinian evolution.
?
This seems like semantic nit-picking. Because you can't put a
"precise frontier" do you really want to say they are not different?
I see a difference at some level, but in the development of life, I
don't se any frontier.
All right, let us say that after the invention of the ribosomes and
DNA-proteines relation, it is no more Darwinian evolution.
The point is that they were not "inventions".
I guess you mean that they were not human invention, but that beg the
question.
Do you want to obscure the distinction between invention and random
variation?
I am not sure that the random variation plays the key role in
evolution, some randomly created programs could have an important
role, in the development of life. With the eukaryotic cell, it seems
we have already an important complex software contained in the genome.
Something like the mandelbrot set code can play some important role in
the beginning, enough to doubt that it evolution is only random
variation.
The rest is deliberate attempt to eat, and mate, through variation
of the molecular means to address such goals.
And deliberate attempts to invent. Specifically, in the case under
consideration, attempts to invent beings that would realize our
ideals, but would be suited to travel to other planets and prosper
there.
It will be us. We will be those beings. In the long run, we will
transform ourselves and expand. Meanwhile such "robots" will prepare
the places where we will live (be processed).
What is different between the success of a new protein, and a new
human tool. The man tried to get the apple in the tree and
eventually use a stick and get it, and then (perhaps much later) he
realize he can strike also the beast going for the apple, etc.
The difference is that one is selected from random variation and the
other is invented, possibly by evaluating, in thought, random ideas
of tools. In practice the difference is that the latter is much
faster. Over the last few millenia, cultural and technological
evolution has far outstripped Darwinian evolution.
Is that not already the case with the "invention" of the nerve system?
I see this as a question of degree. There are programs and meta-
programs, local goals and global general goals, etc. Darwinian
evolution is mixed with the active products of that evolution, so I am
not sure we can so easily distinguish some pure random selection from
the activity of what has been selected.
Bruno
Brent
Very similar things appear at the molecular level, and at many
possible biological meta-levels.
I am not sure you can put a precise frontier between Darwinism and
"free-will". The Darwinian evolution has selected quickly machines/
programs having goals: eating enough, mating enough, and avoiding
being eaten (to much). Then free-will and deliberate action becomes
a matter of will and chance.
Bruno
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