On Saturday, May 10, 2014, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 10 May 2014 20:12, Telmo Menezes >> <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 8:30 AM, LizR >>> <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> On 10 May 2014 17:30, Stathis Papaioannou >>>> <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, May 10, 2014, LizR >>>>> <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I guess one could start from "is physics computable?" (As Max Tegmark >>>>>> discusses in his book, but I haven't yet read what his conclusions are, >>>>>> if >>>>>> any). If physics is computable and consciousness arises somehow in a >>>>>> "materialist-type way" from the operation of the brain, then >>>>>> consciousness >>>>>> will be computable by definition. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is that trivially obvious to you? The anti-comp crowd claim that even >>>>> if brain behaviour is computable that does not mean that a computer >>>>> could be conscious, since it may require the actual brain matter, and not >>>>> just a simulation, to generate the consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> If physics is computable, and consciousness arises from physics with >>>> nothing extra (supernatural or whatever) then yes. Am I missing something >>>> obvious? >>>> >>> >> You're missing the step where you explain how doing the computations >> generates consciousness. >> > > No, that was the initial assumption. > > You said: "The anti-comp crowd claim that even if brain behaviour is > computable that does not mean that a computer could be conscious, since it > may require the actual brain matter" > > So it is implied that some none-computable part of the brain generates > consciousness, which immediately contradicts the assumption that brain > behaviour is computable. > It could be that some system the behaviour of which is entirely computable gives rise to consciousness. But consciousness is not a behaviour. > That is what I understand "consciousness is computable" to mean. >> >> >>> >>> Yeah, I always feel the same about this sort of argument. It seems so >>> trivial to disprove: >>> >>> "even if brain behaviour is computable that does not mean that a >>> computer could be conscious, since it may require the actual brain matter, >>> and not just a simulation, to generate the consciousness." >>> >>> 1. If brain behaviour is computable and (let's say comp) >>> >> >> Not "and let's say comp", since that is what you are setting out to prove >> >> >>> 2. brain generates consciousness but >>> 3. it requires actual brain matter to do so then >>> 4. brain behaviour is not computable (~comp) >>> >> >> No, that doesn't follow. That brain behaviour is computable means that we >> are able to compute such things as the sequence in which neurons will fire >> and the effect neuronal activity will have on muscle. >> >> >>> so comp = ~comp >>> >>> I also wonder if I'm missing something, since I hear this one a lot. >>> >> >> A computer model of a thunderstorm will predict the behaviour of a real >> thunderstorm but it won't be wet. In contrast, I believe that a computer >> model of a brain will not only predict the behaviour of a real brain but >> will also be conscious. However, I don't think this is trivially obvious. >> > > A computer model and computability are different things. We have to be > precise about what the initial assumptions mean. > Computability is an abstract concept. I understand the idea that a physical system is "computable" as meaning that there is an algorithm that allows us to predict its behaviour. I don't see how this could be applied to consciousness being computable in the same way, since consciousness is not a behaviour. The only sense I can make of consciousness being computable is that by doing the computations, consciousness is generated. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
