On 6/9/2014 9:37 PM, LizR wrote:
On 10 June 2014 15:09, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 6/9/2014 7:49 PM, LizR wrote:
On 10 June 2014 14:16, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 6/9/2014 5:55 PM, LizR wrote:
On 10 June 2014 10:13, meekerdb <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 6/9/2014 2:46 PM, LizR wrote:
I guess I could venture that it's the ontology of any TOE in
which
interactions are all 3p.
OK, thanks. So I would guess that it's equivalent to eliminativism,
as I
think it's called - the idea that consciousness is an illusion
("albeit a
persistent one"). It does seem that way to me.
I don't think it implies eliminativism. There's still temperature
even
though we have statistical mechanics. I think there's far too much
importance given to "what's fundamental" and it leads to calling
everything else and illusion. I doubt that Bruno thinks arithmetic
is an
illusion just because what's fundamental is 0, S, +, and *. A
correction
to this kind of obsession with essence is why I like my virtuous
circle of
explanation.
So how can all interactions be 3p? Maybe I misunderstood. It seems to
me that
consciousness implies there's 1p stuff going on?
I might be possible to know exactly what conscious thoughts are
occurring by
monitoring 3p accessible information (this is implicit in the idea that
the
brain is a classical information processor and its action instantiates
consciousness), in which case it could be explained in 3p terms; but
that
doesn't mean the 1p stuff would suddenly cease to be any more that stat
mech
means that temperature ceases to exist.
I still don't understand what you mean by "all interactions are 3p". "All
3p" seems
by definition to exclude any 1p stuff .
Are you saying that there /are/ 1p experiences, but they're just "along for
the
ride" and have no interaction with the rest of the world? (But surely 1p
interacts
with the outside world, even if only passively?)
They're "along for the ride" like temperature is alftr on the kinetic
energy of
molecules. Before stat mech, heat was regarded as an immaterial substance.
It was
explained by the motion of molecules; something that is 3p observable but
the
explanation didn't make it vanish or make it illusory.
OK, so if I understand you correctly*, you think consciousness is "real in some sense"
but basically an epiphenomenon?
Yeah that's pretty close, although I'd say consciousness just occurs at a different level
of description and is equally "real" at that level. The second law of thermodynamics is
"real" at the level of thermodynamics, even though it can be seen as implied by
statistical mechanics. It is more general than any specific statistical mechanics. I
don't think p-zombies are possible, so consciousness is a necessary aspect of some kinds
of physical processes.
Brent
*I know, what are the chances?! :-)
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