On 15 Mar 2015, at 21:45, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno wrote:
Response to relation looks like Behaviorism, that is pure 3p.
Consciousness usually denote the first person awareness.
Where does your line#1 imply your line#2? That darn Behaviorism (I
don't argue with your usage of words) may be a 'liveless' 3p
behavior as well.
Certainly.
It may depend on YOUR (MY?) definition of Ccness that may, or may
not include thinking/living creatures exclusively.
Just think of 'pressure' related changes available also for
lifeless(?) items.
That is what I do all the times, as consciousness supervene, in the
computationalist theory, on (infinities) of 3p relations among numbers
(admittedly lifeless).
But this means that you agree with the usual definition which is that
consciousness is a private knowledge, by creatures (in arithmetic,
with computationalism, or in some other reality, with other hypotheses).
Br: Denied ignorance is very bad, but what about the accepted
ignorance? Then we can do all the theories we want, without ever
taking ourselves too much seriously.
Would you please draw a line here between science and religion?
There is no difference. The only difference comes from the fact that
we tolerate the lack of rigor in religion, which might be normal for
the applied religion in the short run. The result is that in science
we know that we don't know the truth, and we search seriously, but in
religion we usually pretend to know the truth and -we burn alive those
who find the flaws.
I plea for a return to seriousness in all fields. It is very easy, as
it consists to just make clear the assumptions, and the way of
reasoning, and mleans of verification.
Br:
If we use ignorance to forbid the theorizing then we will certainly
learn nothing.
Or: we would learn a different type (logic?) leading to different
theorizing and build a different (scientific???) worldview.
But that is what we do all the time in science, which contains already
many ways of reasoning, not all compatible, which leads to problems. I
am not sure I understand.
Logicians studies many different logics. The machine self-reference
showsalreadu 8 conflicting logics that the machine develop about itself.
The machine agrees with you, but apparently you don't like that, which
makes me doubt about your agnosticism with respect of computationalism.
Agnosticism in my view does not restrict, rather free up the ways of
gathering information.
I am open to all the ways, from math to salvia and dream experiences.
Then we make theories, which are always hypothetical, once we want
communicate to others.
Classical logic is not the most true logic, but it is the most polite,
in which we can easily explain other logics.
Bruno
JM
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 14 Mar 2015, at 20:59, John Mikes wrote:
LizR:
Consciousness, in my vocabulary sounds like: Response to Relations,
not a mental awarness in thinking/living creatures.
Response to relation looks like Behaviorism, that is pure 3p.
Consciousness usually denote the first person awareness.
Your views may be correct, if you accept conclusions drawn in the
name of the present science upon the incomplete circumstances we
already know of. Including Ccness as some mental awareness in
living minds. Your 'evolutionary advantages' are triggered - maybe
including - effects from so far even unreceived domains.
Similarly I would think twice to call an extinction 'devolutionary'.
My statement stays: I don't know.
Nobody knows. The question is always, what do you believe?
A tyranosaure - even with terrific 'enthusiasm' - could not resist
to starving.
I accept your denigratory opinion rather than being part of a
contemporary science - cheating/lying (theorizing?) based upon
denied ignorance.
Your humble agnostix
Denied ignorance is very bad, but what about the accepted ignorance?
Then we can do all the theories we want, without ever taking
ourselves too much seriously.
If we use ignorance to forbid the theorizing then we will certainly
learn nothing.
Bruno
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 5:47 PM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 13 March 2015 at 10:39, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote:
I don't know.
JM
PS did I promise to solve the problems? Telling one's opinion is a
free right, even w/o being obliged to redress things. I fought
against reductionists and faithfuls,
now I simply speak my mind. J.
That's OK, of course. My problem is that I couldn't understand what
you were trying to say, so you didn't actually even manage to "tell
your opinion". It just looked like random sniping with no actual
meaning. (Maybe it was?)
Anyway, my original point still stands. Consciousness may confer
some evolutionary advantage. (e.g. a sense of self may mean an
organism responds to threats and so on with greater enthusiasm that
it would if operating on reflex).
Any sensible objections / refutations welcome.
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