On 27 Mar 2016, at 13:50, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016, Samiya Illias <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 25-Mar-2016, at 5:40 pm, Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Friday, 25 March 2016, Samiya Illias <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:22 AM, John Clark <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 , Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
> Rationality and sincerity are not mutually exclusive.
If your idea is rational then sincere faith in it is
unnecessary, but the more irrational your belief is the more
sincere faith you need. But I want to know one thing, why is
sincere faith considered a virtue?? It seems much more like a vice
to me.
It states in the Quran that God has created us to worship him (http://quran.com/51/53-59
).
The word worship includes reverence, adoration and loving
obedience. Moreover, rationality has to do with the mind, while
faith has to do with feelings and attitudes. Knowing/acknowledging
that God exists is not the same as being grateful to God for life
and all its blessings, nor is it the same as lovingly doing
whatever duty you're assigned to do. It is about being glad about
it and happy to do it!
> I try to show that the Quran is factually correct, which is
why I believe the Quran is indeed a message from God.
In Quran 7: 54 it says the universe was created by Allah in 6
days:
"Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and
earth in Six Days"
But in Quran 41: 9 it says:
"Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in TWO DAYS?"
And in Quran 41: 10 it says:
"He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it,
and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things
to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS"
And in Quran 41: 12
"So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two
days"
That's 2 for the earth 4 for nourishment and 2 for that heavens and
that makes for 8 days. So did Allah make the universe in 6 days or 8?
Excerpt from my blogpost on Creation verses:
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/10/creation.html
Three verses of the Qur’an [6:91, 22:74, 39:67] state that the
unbelievers have made no just estimate of Allah as is due to Him:
Allah [i] has indeed sent down the scriptures, [ii] is strong and
able to carry out His Will, and [iii] on the Day of Resurrection,
the whole of the earth will be in His grip, and the heavens will be
rolled up in His right hand.
Creation according to Quran
Reading together and summarising the various verses pertaining to
creation in the Quran, it appears to me that there are two phases
of creation: the primary phase of six days (or periods) where the
Earth and Heaven were created; then the secondary phase when the
already created Earth and Heaven were joined together, and then the
Earth and Seven Heavens were evolved, with their physical laws. The
following sequence emerges:
Primary Phase: Allah created the Heavens and the Earth in six days:
the Earth was created in two days and made to grow meaningfully in
four days. Meanwhile, the Heaven was like smoke. Then, He
established Himself over the throne (started governing it).
Secondary Phase: the Heaven and Earth were ordered to come together
as one. Then, the Heaven was raised and divided/layered into seven
Heavens, and each assigned its laws. The Earth was expanded and
made habitable.
A verse specifically mentions that as Allah created the seven
Heavens, He also created a similar number of Earths, and that
Allah’s command descends through them. Another verse informs us
that we can never escape the diameters of the heavens without
permission/authority. The Quran repeatedly states that Allah is the
Lord of the Worlds.
Two verses inform us that a Day can be of any length and varies
from measure to measure. Many verses inform us of a Day to come,
and that when we will be asked about how long we stayed on Earth,
we will say a day or a part of it.
<end quote>
And how long is one of Allah's days anyway? In Quran 22: 47 it
says:
"A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your
reckoning."
As we can infer from Quran 39:67, God is much greater than His
creation, and thus outside it. We know from science that the
measure of a day varies from location to location, and depends upon
a number of factors. A day on Earth is 24 earth hours, while a day
on Venus is longer than a Venus year. So, I suppose, outside the
concentric seven heavens, a day is equivalent to a 1000 earth
years. And Allah knows best!
But Quran 70: 4 it says:
"The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure
whereof is Fifty thousands years."
This verse is speaking of time taken to travel from Earth. We
measure distance in terms of light years. However, we do not know
at what speed do the angels and the Spirit travel, and how. So,
while our knowledge is limited, we must take this also on faith.
Do you not see how unreasonable it is to include "faith" when you
are talking about evidence? We will climb Mount Olympus to look for
evidence of Zeus. If we find it, great; if we don't, we'll just
take Zeus and all the stories about him on faith.
Do you not take gravity on faith?
Do you not take speed of light as the maximum speed limit on faith?
What if tomorrow it is discovered that the speed of light barrier
can be breached and it is possible to travel faster than the speed
of light?
Science takes a lot of things on faith, and hopes that it will be
proven someday.
If the scripture is really from God's knowledge, then of course
there must be plenty of things in it which we do understand, and
plenty more which we will understand in future when our knowledge-
base expands.
There is plenty of evidence we can understand and verify. It would
be in our interest to study those first instead of debating what's
beyond our knowledge.
Science doesn't take any of these things on faith - there are good
reasons to believe them, and if better theories with better evidence
come along, the old theories are dropped. Religious beliefs are
often bizarre, but that is not the main problem with them; after
all, there are many scientific theories which are bizarre. The main
difference between a religious and a scientific belief is that the
scientific belief is affected by evidence, either for or against,
while the religious belief is not.
You have tried to show that some of the writings in the Quran are
consistent with scientific facts about the world, but I think this
is disingenuous, because if you found inconsistencies you would just
say that God works in mysterious ways and go on believing the same
thing. A faith-based belief is not affected by evidence, a rational
belief is.
I agree, if that was needed to be made precise.
Actually it sums pretty well the problem contemporary machine
theologian have with the non agnostic atheists, as they believe in a
*primary* physical, and impersonal, Glass of Milk without any
evidences, and does not change their mind or just can't harbor any
doubt in front of new evidences which suggest their case is much less
solid than thought since a long time.
But I agree with you, the old theories are dropped ... eventually.
Just that the more fundamental they are, the more it takes time, which
is easily understandable.
Bruno
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Stathis Papaioannou
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