On 19 Dec 2017, at 09:03, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:37:39 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 16 Dec 2017, at 19:00, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:20 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't see how Wigner's friend presents a problem for
Copenhagen. According to the CI, the wf collapses when the system
measured, which is when the box is opened. What am I missing?
According to Copenhagen Wigner's friend opens
the cat box and that collapses the cat's wave function,
and so Wigner's friend now knows the cat's fate, but Wigner's
friend is also in a box and Wigner himself is outside
that box, so until Wigner opens his friend's box his friend is in a
"I see a dead cat" state AND a "I see a live cat state". And of
course you could put Wigner himself in a box with somebody outside
it and you could keep increasing the number of nested boxes until
the entire universe is included, and that is why the
Copenhagen interpretation is useless if you're interest is
in dealing in cosmology because there is nobody outside to
universe observe it.
And God is of no help unless somebody knows who collapses God's
wave function, and even then there would be another unanswered
question too obvious to mention.
And with Digital Mechanism, even a Universe cannot help. How could
*anything* select a computation, or a class of computations, among
all computations?
But the first person associated to the universal numbers, involved
in the semi-computable relations, localized themselves in the
relative way allowed by the local self-referential correctness,
apparently.
Gödel's arithmetization of metamathematics embed the mathematicians
in the arithmetical reality/truth/model (the structure (N, 0, +, x).
Remarkably, incompleteness justfies the equivalence, at the truth
level, of all modes p, Bp, Bp & p, etc. , and the fact that the
machine cannot justify those equivalences, and that they obey quite
different logics.
Kant can be tested, by looking for time, space and the quantum "in
the head" of the universal machine. Apparently he is right.
Bruno
Translation: CMIIAW: Mumbo Jumbo OR There is a God. His name is
Plato. He knows arithmetic. (Since he learned it from his father, we
have an infinite regression of turtles within turtles.) AG
You need to read the papers or ask question. The starting point (which
is not obvious and requires the reading of the Universal Doevtailer
Argument) is that you cannot have both a mechanist explanation of the
mind, and physicalism. Then what I say above requires the study of
the "theology of the universal machine", alias Gödel-Löb-Solovay
modal logic G*, and the understanding of its interpretation in
arithmetic, and this requires a bit of mathematical logic.
Then the result is that original, as we just find back the
neoplatonist conception of reality (where matter is derived from
theology), but here, the math makes this precise enough to be tested,
and we do recover a quantum formalism where expected (the statistics
on all computations). Now, this is usually understood and judged
conceivable by people open to the idea that there is no collapse in
nature, or other "everything-like" philosophy. To assume "all" is
simpler than to assume a specific reality, in general. That is the
basic guiding principle of this list.
And, no, Plato is not a God, but with Mechanism, the arithmetical
reality is a god in the sense of Plato. That is a reality which
explains both matter, consciousness and which is conceptually simple.
Bruno
John K Clark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
