On 19 Dec 2017, at 11:27, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 8:03:00 AM UTC, [email protected]
wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:37:39 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 16 Dec 2017, at 19:00, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:20 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't see how Wigner's friend presents a problem for
Copenhagen. According to the CI, the wf collapses when the system
measured, which is when the box is opened. What am I missing?
According to Copenhagen Wigner's friend opens
the cat box and that collapses the cat's wave function,
and so Wigner's friend now knows the cat's fate, but Wigner's
friend is also in a box and Wigner himself is outside
that box, so until Wigner opens his friend's box his friend is in a
"I see a dead cat" state AND a "I see a live cat state". And of
course you could put Wigner himself in a box with somebody outside
it and you could keep increasing the number of nested boxes until
the entire universe is included, and that is why the
Copenhagen interpretation is useless if you're interest is
in dealing in cosmology because there is nobody outside to
universe observe it.
And God is of no help unless somebody knows who collapses God's
wave function, and even then there would be another unanswered
question too obvious to mention.
And with Digital Mechanism, even a Universe cannot help. How could
*anything* select a computation, or a class of computations, among
all computations?
But the first person associated to the universal numbers, involved
in the semi-computable relations, localized themselves in the
relative way allowed by the local self-referential correctness,
apparently.
Gödel's arithmetization of metamathematics embed the mathematicians
in the arithmetical reality/truth/model (the structure (N, 0, +, x).
Remarkably, incompleteness justfies the equivalence, at the truth
level, of all modes p, Bp, Bp & p, etc. , and the fact that the
machine cannot justify those equivalences, and that they obey quite
different logics.
Kant can be tested, by looking for time, space and the quantum "in
the head" of the universal machine. Apparently he is right.
Bruno
Translation: CMIIAW: Mumbo Jumbo OR There is a God. His name is
Plato. He knows arithmetic. (Since he learned it from his father, we
have an infinite regression of turtles within turtles.) AG
Alternatively, you're putting WILL at the core of creation
manifested by a Mathematician. AG
Not at all. I assume (besides the Mechanist hypothesis) only very
elementary arithmetic:
That is classical logic +
0 ≠ s(x) (= 0 is not the successor of a number)
s(x) = s(y) -> x = y (different numbers have different successors)
x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y)) (except for 0, all numbers have a predecessor)
x+0 = x (if you add zero to a number, you get
that number)
x+s(y) = s(x+y) (if you add a number x to the successor of a number
y, you get the successor of x added to y)
x*0=0 (if you multiply a number by 0, you get 0)
x*s(y)=(x*y)+x (if you multiply a number x by the successor of y,
you get the number x added to the multiplication of the number x with y)
I do not assume anything more than this.
I do not see what I could have said making you believe that I assume
some WILL at the core of the creation. With computationalism, a will
can be ascribed to a machine/number, relatively to universal machine/
numbers and their computations, which provably exist in the theory
above.
It is the physicalist who do the speculation on a primary universe,
without any evidence for it. So people knock on the table, and take
that as an evidence, but this was already refuted by the antic
philosophers with the dream argument. No experience, nor experiments
can lead to an ontology, except for the personal consciousness.
Physics is not metaphysics, unless you assume Aristotle theology, i.e.
you assume a PRIMARY physical universe, that is, if you assume
physicalism at the start. But then you need to abandon the idea that a
brain is Turing emulable. personally, I don't know, but I study the
logical consequence of mechanism, and it predicts that all machine
must find quantum physics in their head, and this has been partially
tested and verified. It is all we can say.
Bruno
John K Clark
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