> On 22 Apr 2019, at 21:38, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: > > Of course we have a choice. The primacy of consciousness may entail nothing > more than an epistemological barrier - we may never be able to experience > reality directly, or know its true form, but that doesn't force us to deny > the possibility of an objective reality. > > If nothing else it forces us to remain agnostic.
Agnosticism is the scientific attitude (and also the religious attitude when we assume mechanism). We never claim truth, but propose theories, precise enough to be evaluated (usually by confrontation with the sensible things, like Nature) > We can be sure of the primacy of consciousness - on this we agree - We can be sure of our consciousness. I don’t see how we could be sure of its ontological primacy, only of its apparent epistemological primacy, which is different. > but we cannot be sure about anything of the reality that pushes back on our > consciousness. Your certainty on this matter is a red flag for me. Yes. Me too. Now, with mechanism, if you are OK with the quasi-axiomatic definition of consciousness that I gave, it is a theorem that all universal machine are conscious, and that physics is derivable from that theory, and indeed, the math shows that we get a quantum physics, so that nature confirms mechanism, as much as it refutes physicalism already. The fundamental science is the theology of the universal Turing machine. It is testable theory, and, still confirmed up to now. As I have explained, physicalism is refuted, unless we abandon mechanism. But to assume a material universe just to avoid Mechanism is poor motivation, because it substitute a testable explanation with “god made it”, or”matter made it”, without any further explanations. Bruno > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote: > We have no choice in building such an ontology given the fact that we can > never know anything outside consciousness. Sure, if we want just technology, > then all kinds of science can do it. But if we want truth, we cannot search > it outside consciousness. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
