On 5/28/2019 4:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 28 May 2019, at 08:00, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 5/27/2019 11:06 AM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 8:38:58 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 3:57 AM Philip Thrift
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
/> It is odd that the phenomenon of consciousness would be a
"hard" problem, as if other "problems" of nature would be
"easy". We don't know what dark matter and dark energy are./
The question "What is Dark Matter?" is the second most important
question in physics beaten only by "What is Dark Energy?". We
don't know the answer to either one but as least the question is
clear so in that sense they are easy. But nobody even knows what
the "hard" question of consciousness is much less have a answer,
by that I mean nobody even knows the general form an answer
would take that would allow people like Bruno to say it has been
solved.
For example, if I discovered a new stable particle that was so
numerous that its mass added up to 5 times the mass of all
normal baryonic matter in the universe then the Dark Matter
question would be answered; and if it can be proven that
Einstein's Cosmological Constant exists and exerts a negative
pressure then the Dark Energy question will be answered. But
what would allow you to say the hard question of consciousness
has been answered? I have no idea because the question has not
been stated clearly.
John K Clark
My main point is we don't know what *gravity* is either. Witness all
the physicists today - some say it is "emergent" (not fundamental)
and a dozen other options for /what gravity is/.
We observe both the existence of consciousness (in ourselves) and
phenomenal gravity (in everything, recording how things move) but
there is still a hard problem of gravity. There is no accepted final
theory of gravity. And no "problem" of science (including gravity)
will ever be "solved". That idea is a form of theology. Science just
comes up with theories that might be useful in some way.
On the other hand, the solutions science finds work better than the
solutions provided by every other disciplines...like theology.
That is simply wrong. Physics predicts very well, but only by its
speculation of some yet unknown non computationalist theory of mind.
Which casts doubt on the computationalist theory of mind.
If you don’t believe this, you have to explain me how you related the
3p prediction with the 1p confirmation, and this will require some God
singling out a computation from all computations.
The same way I related the 1p action to the 3p set up of the experiment.
Brent
The situation is very similar with the reaction of the wave packet. It
would makes sense only with a criteria telling us where QM get wrong
in between the observer and the observed. Wigner and von Neuman
suggest that it is at the level of consciousness, which is at least
coherent with the incompatibly between Mechanism and physicalism.
Bruno
Brent
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