Le lun. 20 janv. 2020 à 22:45, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a écrit :
> > > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 6:25:29 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> Le lun. 20 janv. 2020 à 14:10, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >> écrit : >> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 6:04:38 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le lun. 20 janv. 2020 à 13:49, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>>> écrit : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 3:30:19 AM UTC-7, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 3:02:51 AM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:31:42 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:17:58 AM UTC-7, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:12:45 AM UTC-7, Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 12:57:55 AM UTC-7, Bruce wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 5:59 PM Alan Grayson < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 10:50:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 4:19 PM Alan Grayson < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Last sentence above: I mean that if it had a "start" with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite spatial extent, that would seem to mean it did NOT have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite spatial extent just prior to the start. For me this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems like a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> singularity, an infinite physical process which occurs in zero >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. If I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were betting, I'd bet on a finite closed universe for any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> universe which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "starts", not for the Multiverse. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You can bet any way you want. I doubt that the universe gives >>>>>>>>>>>>> a shit. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *I'd go further and ask one question: it obviously doesn't. Is >>>>>>>>>>>> this your idea of value-added? What I think it displays is your >>>>>>>>>>>> firmly held >>>>>>>>>>>> belief that it's flat, and anger that someone might think >>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise. Not >>>>>>>>>>>> your finest hour. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not anger -- just frustration at your intransigence. I don't >>>>>>>>>>> care what you think, so why should I be angry? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Correction in CAPS below: * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Annoyance is only slightly removed from anger. Maybe you're >>>>>>>>>> being intransigent. As Brent pointed out, many origin theories have a >>>>>>>>>> "beginning" or "start", so before that our universe CAME INTO BEING, >>>>>>>>>> IT >>>>>>>>>> didn't exist (not to be confused with the Multiverse, WHICH COULD BE >>>>>>>>>> ANYTHING, FLAT, ETERNAL, WHO KNOWS?). But then, magically perhaps, >>>>>>>>>> it comes >>>>>>>>>> into instantaneous existence having an infinite spatial extent since >>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>> alleged to be flat. For a genius like you, there's nothing to be >>>>>>>>>> explained >>>>>>>>>> here. AG * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *If you had more intellectual integrity, a characteristic lacking >>>>>>>> in many physicists/hacks today, instead of mockery you might posit a >>>>>>>> universe without a beginning. AG * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem stems from physicists, for the most part, completely >>>>>>> mislead people about the relationship between the mathematical language >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> theories of physics and cosmology and physical reality (which we record >>>>>>> via >>>>>>> lab instruments and telescopes into collections of data). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is explained in Victor Stenger's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/physicists-are-philosophers-too/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @philipthrift >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *TY. I'll read it. The likely solution to the problem I've raised is >>>>>> that only an un-created universe, one which never began but always >>>>>> existed >>>>>> (in some form), can be flat. Unfortunately when one argues too >>>>>> persistently, the response is petulance. AG* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *The truth is, for all his brilliance, Bruce is an asshole. So he >>>>> makes his mocking comments, that he doesn't care what I think, as if >>>>> that's >>>>> the issue. What shit! What I am established is that flatness is >>>>> incompatible with a universe which had a beginning. So if it's flat, it >>>>> never had a beginning; or else it did, and is closed, hyper-spherical in >>>>> shape. AG* >>>>> >>>> >>>> What prevent it to be infinite since the start ? As I said, it's space >>>> that expand, so going back in time shows *our obsvervable* universe has >>>> been small... that doesn't preclude it (our observable part) to be from a >>>> vastly bigger thing, even an infinite thing, we would still only see our >>>> small part. >>>> >>>> Quentin >>>> >>> >>> I explained it several times. There's a singularity implied if it had a >>> start AND was infinite. If it's infinite, it never had a beginning or >>> start. AG >>> >> >> What singularity ? if being infinite is a singularity, then you're simply >> saying nothing is infinite, start or no start. >> > > You haven't read my remarks carefully. Infinite in spatial extent is not > the singularity. Rather, it's the creation of that in zero time, at the > start, since no physical process can occur with a time duration of zero. > And starting from nothing is not a singularity... Why insisting of zero time ? It just start infinite... It's no more magical, as starting finite. Starting from nothing is magical enough. Note that after the start, the universe might be expanding faster than > light, but not at an infinite rate, which would be necessary to create > infinite spatial extent. AG > >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6f7b8392-51fd-4f5b-b304-3a726ae2a083%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6f7b8392-51fd-4f5b-b304-3a726ae2a083%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f241d6d6-34e9-41d0-9268-f07bb7f03009%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f241d6d6-34e9-41d0-9268-f07bb7f03009%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/06ea8550-3e3c-49a5-88bb-9bfe40c5217b%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/06ea8550-3e3c-49a5-88bb-9bfe40c5217b%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAMW2kAqM3Q%3DWbmssNMo0pas4%3DmdT2G3WZZoHzK89kWDYBeV7BQ%40mail.gmail.com.
