On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 6:38 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> So based on your definition, Santa Claus exists. > I believe everything possible exists. That is the idea this mail list was created to discuss, after all. (That is why it is called the "everything list") Jason > On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 00:47:28 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Brain doesn't exist. >> >> >> Then it exists as an object in consciousness, which is as much as exist >> would mean under idealism. Rather than say things don't exist, I think it >> would be better to redefine what is meant by existence. >> >> >> "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >> >> >> Sure, and all objects exist in the mind of God. So "exist" goes back to >> meaning what it has always meant, as Markus Mueller said (roughly): "A >> exists for B, when changing the state of A can change the state of B, and >> vice versa, under certain auxiliary conditions." >> >> >> See my papers, like "How Self-Reference Builds the World": >>> https://philpeople.org/profiles/cosmin-visan >> >> >>> >> I have, and replied with comments and questions. You, however, dismissed >> them as me not having read your paper. >> >> Have you seen my paper on how computational observers build the world? It >> reaches a similar conclusion to yours: >> >> https://philpeople.org/profiles/jason-k-resch >> >> Jason >> >> >> >>> On Monday 8 July 2024 at 23:35:12 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 4:04 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> *>Consciousness is a prerequisite of intelligence.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think you've got that backwards, intelligence is a prerequisite of >>>>> consciousness. And the possibility of intelligent ACTIONS is a >>>>> prerequisite for Darwinian natural selection to have evolved it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I disagree, but will explain below. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *> One can be conscious without being intelligent,* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sure. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I define intelligence by something capable of intelligent action. >>>> >>>> Intelligent action requires non random choice: choice informed by >>>> information from the environment. >>>> >>>> Having information about the environment (i.e. perceptions) is >>>> consciousness. You cannot have perceptions without there being some process >>>> or thing to perceive them. >>>> >>>> Therefore perceptions (i.e. consciousness) is a requirement and >>>> precondition of being able to perform intelligent actions. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> The Turing Test is not perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but it's all >>>>> we've got. If something passes the Turing Test then it's intelligent and >>>>> conscious, but if it fails the test then it may or may not be intelligent >>>>> and or conscious. >>>>> >>>>> *You need to have perceptions (of the environment, or the current >>>>>> situation) in order to act intelligently. * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For intelligence to have evolved, and we know for a fact that it has, >>>>> you not only need to be able to perceive the environment you also >>>>> need to be able to manipulate it. That's why zebras didn't evolve great >>>>> intelligence, they have no hands, so a brilliant zebra wouldn't have a >>>>> great advantage over a dumb zebra, in fact he'd probably be at a >>>>> disadvantage because a big brain is a great energy hog. >>>>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> >>>>> 339 >>>>> >>>>> 3b4 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2Zjakk5szeMFfZu%3DCYp3FzopZsOOMXW%2Bx7qPH9_pujfg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2Zjakk5szeMFfZu%3DCYp3FzopZsOOMXW%2Bx7qPH9_pujfg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5812f096-a4a9-4915-8fee-5b7c810d3609n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5812f096-a4a9-4915-8fee-5b7c810d3609n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6d73d528-f6d0-42be-855f-2bdb76510663n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6d73d528-f6d0-42be-855f-2bdb76510663n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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