Good morning Uncle T:

On May 13, 2005, at 9:11 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

> That's actually one reason I asked.  There are some
> schools of thought (like TM, when I was around) that
> suggest that once realized, enlightenment is perma-
> nent.  There are others that believe that it can come
> and go.  I tend to believe the latter, for many reasons.

Well the question is, "how do you know it is permanent" if you believe 
that? There is a good answer to this, but to be honest, these methods 
aren't even taught in an intro-type meditation like TM!  Nonetheless, 
some claim this. None seem to understand the way of telling this or why 
this can happen.

I have observed time and time again that if I point out some element 
that seems flawed in their View--instead of admitting this, they just 
come back a day or a week later claiming some new experience that 
includes it. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

In every single case where someone has claimed to enlightened a la "TM" 
their View (their inner POV/cosmology) matched precisely the vague 
definitions MMY has given, often slightly embellished with a  
sprinkling of Neo-Vedanta or some Byron Katie thrown in--but 
none...NONE...give the full View of these states as more generally 
described. So far none could demonstrate the ability to perform all the 
Siddhis (or one for that matter).

I realize this is unpopular to say, but it is my true observation.

>
> Now, if the latter were true, and one had begun to have
> enlightenment experiences, had announced them to the
> world, and then those experiences faded, what does
> one do?

Hopefully find a cave.

>
> How many would have the strength of character to go
> back to all those people one had announced one's
> enlightenment to and say, "Ooops?"

It's unheard of.

>
> In several traditions this situation has come up often
> enough that they don't recommend talking about one's
> experiences as permanent until they have been present
> 24/7 for ten years or so.

That makes sense. The state of Unity can be quite stable and can last 
hours, days, months, etc. This is why I emphasize "gaining certainty of 
the View" rather than constant attachment to the idea of enlightenment. 
IME TM'ers are very attached to the Fruit.



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