Yes, preliminary. The thing about experiences, even intermittent witnessing, is 
that some people collect these experiences, while remaining unchanged, 
themselves. Driven by egoic fear. It is like being a tourist of 
higher-consciousness experiences. I did listen to a bit of the Sat Shree 
interview and he says a veil, separating him from the rest of the universe, was 
torn open, with no possibility of being repaired. To live Being, silence, and 
bliss, is a far different thing, than collecting, "I saw this", and, "this 
happened once", and, "for awhile, this other thing happened". Enlightenment is 
not an aggregate, a museum, or even, a mausoleum, of experiences - that's how 
religions get born, in the graveyards of memories, of higher consciousness.  

 Experiences, as seen in the mind, continually shrink - very unsatisfying, 
whereas enlightenment constantly, effortlessly taps that font of creativity and 
expansion [pure awareness], renewing itself, so the mind, when it does act, has 
no need to rely on stale and shrinking memories - it can go anywhere it 
chooses, or just rest empty, in pure awareness. Once everything is available, 
there is no longer a need to collect experiences of any variety, no matter how 
tantalizing their memory may be.
---In, <> wrote :

 The Turq hasn't had any spiritual experiences in his whole life. Forty-five 
years ago he experienced a few days of witnessing in Fiuggji, but that's only a 
preliminary experience. Yet he likes to brag about it even today, decades 
later. Later he had some hallucinations about his Buddhist-guru, the Lenz-guy 
who killed himself while wearing a dog-collar around his neck, levitating. And 
that's it. The fact is that the Turq-fellow never had any spiritual experiences 
at all.
 Yet he judge others, what a phony.


---In, <punditster@...> wrote :

 On 11/14/2014 2:50 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
 Prove to me that there is or ever has been such a thing as an "enlightened 
being." I'll wait. 
 Perception is reality- there are no other experiences except those that are 
subjective. Almost everything we know is based on verbal testimony what someone 
 There is no knowing outside of conscious experience - knowledge is structured 
in consciousness. 
 Everyone is special by virtue of being human with a self-conscious mind. The 
proof that everyone is enlightened is consciousness itself. 
 The only reason you don't have the experience of being enlightened is because 
you are not Self-realized - you are ignorant. You didn't listen to your 
teachers and you apparently have not even read any wisdom books.
 Go figure.
 The thing is, John, you can't do it. You believe in "enlightenment" for the 
same reason you believe that these works of fiction are "wisdom books," because 
someone you chose to believe TOLD YOU. That does *NOT* constitute proof. 
 Me,I believe that the subjective experience that some call enlightenment 
exists. I believe this because I've experienced it for weeks and months at a 
time. But *having experienced it*, I can say that it was JUST ANOTHER 
EXPERIENCE. It did *not* make me "special," and it doesn 't make anyone *else* 
"special," either. It doesn't make anything they say any more accurate or 
cosmic or correct or valuable, any more than a profound drug-induced or 
psychosis-induced subjective experience does.
 Youdon't want to believe this because you have invested decades of your life 
pursuing practices that you believe will make you "special." And after all 
these decades you are really *desperate* to be "special." My advice is to 
relax, because it is never going to happen. Even if you have experiences that 
convince you that you're "enlightened," no one (except the gullible idiots on 
the Batgap Forum) will treat you any differently, no one will think you're 
"wise," and no one will be any more impressed by you than they ever have been. 
 And if you write a book based on your experiences, it definitely won't be a 
"wisdom book." :-)

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