fsdfsfsf > From: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 18:38:13 +0200 > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Game Content > >> >> b) Do any of the Source game packs that allow you to play a mod made >> with the SDK *not* include CSS these days? >> > > Orange Box doesn't, nor does L4D ;) > > 2009/5/14 Jed <[email protected]> > >> Yeah but... >> >> a) You need another Source game to be able to play the mod anyway so >> Valve are getting a sale right here. >> b) Do any of the Source game packs that allow you to play a mod made >> with the SDK *not* include CSS these days? >> >> I'd say that maybe 85% of the time someone with the relevant "base" >> games to play your mod probably has CSS installed anyway. If you want >> to use CSS content in an unmodified form, then yes, just mount the GCF >> and make it a requirement for the mod. If you're making derived model >> then it will be necessary to ship with your mod. >> >> I think as well you have to think a bit beyond "he stole my bike!" - >> stopping this kind of derivative work stifles innovation and puts >> people off modding. I'd say at least 75% of the mods I've seen out >> there use modified content from other Source games in one form or >> another. As it's being used for a Source game, your in a way "keeping >> it in the family" and there's also the follow on of tying a playing to >> Steam, exposure to other games and maybe leading to more sales. Also >> don't forget that games like CSS, DoDS and TF2 all started out as >> mods. It's not in Valves interest to stifle this kind of derivative >> work - especially when its non-profit and could potentially lead them >> to their next-big-hit. >> >> As I said, I think Valve "get" this and are forward thinking enough to >> see that this sort of incestuous breeding of content across their >> games is actually a good thing. >> >> - Jed >> >> >> 2009/5/14 Julian Moschüring <[email protected]>: >>> I agree, but your second point implies that you mount, in this case, the >>> CS:S content, which was the question which started this thread. :-) >>> Perhaps one of the main reason someone plays your mod is that the models >>> are so great. If you don't mount the CS:S content you would take money >>> from valve because if you had mounted it some people would have bought >>> CS:S to play your mod... mmh >>> >>> I would mount the content and publish the mod with the model. You could >>> also check if the content is mountable and if not use some standard >>> model instead of the CS:S ones. >>> >>> Jed schrieb: >>>> I think the great questions are: >>>> >>>> Is it hurting them? >>>> Is it worth them taking legal action? >>>> >>>> As has been pointed out, if you are just borrowing a few low-key (i.e >>>> not character/player) models such as props you're not really giving >>>> away the whole CSS game nor are you really damaging sales. >>>> >>>> Secondly, if borrowing a few models helps you get your free mod out >>>> the door, it might well prompt a player to purchase say the Orange Box >>>> to be able to play your mod - $$$ for Valve. >>>> >>>> Thirdly, the legal costs of taking any modder to task for borrowing a >>>> few props for his Source mod is going to be far in excess of their >>>> market value. >>>> >>>>>From my experience of dealing with Valve first hand I like to think >>>> their a level headed bunch of chaps and their attitude is that if >>>> you're not "taking the piss" with borrowed/reworked content or using >>>> it outside of a Source mod then it's acceptable. Of course that's my >>>> opinion and not fact. >>>> >>>> Then again I think it's a sad reflection on the litigious society of >>>> today if a few modders would be stomped on from trying to learn and >>>> innovate for fear of legal repercussion. >>>> >>>> - Jed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2009/5/14 Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>>> Technically, you are not stealing from Valve by making a copy of their >>>>> works, if they don't lose anything, which the clause that you only use >> a >>>>> small portion of their content includes, because the content cannot >>>>> substitute CS:S, and then it won't affect their sales, thus it can >> quality >>>>> as Fair Use under the US Copyright laws. But it's still untested in >> court, >>>>> and will vary on a case basis, and I am not an US copyright expert. The >> same >>>>> argument goes for editing the content. Again, note that I don't >> recommend >>>>> doing this, but if it's legal due to Fair Use, and you only use small >>>>> amounts of content, it will be much faster for the mod to load the >> content >>>>> from its own folder, instead of adding another search path, which >> increases >>>>> loadtimes. >>>>> >>>>> Oh and be careful when mounting .GCFs from code and not the >> gameinfo.txt, I >>>>> had some experience that some people couldn't launch the mod >> successfully, >>>>> even if they had the .GCF I was mounting. Might be fixed though, but >> still. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Julian Moschüring" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < >> [email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 2:57 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Game Content >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "-You only included small amounts of Valve's copyrighted works" >>>>>> Nice reasoning, so if I go into a shop and only steal eg a part of a >>>>>> computer thats okay? :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you should mount the CS:S content because you have to make >> sure >>>>>> the users who use your mod own the right to have the models you >> provide. >>>>>> Legally you are not even allowed to ship the modified model. To do it >>>>>> totally right you would have to extract the gcf during install and >> modify >>>>>> the original model... but, as Jonas said, I don't think valve will >>>>>> complain about this. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen schrieb: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My personal expierence is that you can use CS:S Content in your mod. >> The >>>>>>> 100% legal way is to mount CS:S content but that requires CS:S to be >>>>>>> installed and owned by everyone who own your mod. Then if you modify >> a >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> models, you can simply make some replacements in your own mod folder >> that >>>>>>> will override the CS:S content. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want a more questionable method that allows everyone to play >> your >>>>>>> mod >>>>>>> (and faster because you don't have to mount another .gcf file or >> two), >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can simply extract the few models you wish to edit and their >> materials, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> put them in your mod's folder. This way you don't depend on any extra >>>>>>> .gcf >>>>>>> files or that people have CS:S installed. This should work fine for >> small >>>>>>> amounts of content. While untested in court, it could qualify for >> Fair >>>>>>> Use >>>>>>> because: >>>>>>> - You only included small amounts of Valve's copyrighted works >>>>>>> - The content required at least one of Valve's products >>>>>>> - The content used doesn't include the whole CS:S and doesn't limit >>>>>>> Valve's >>>>>>> sales, because the content isn't CS:S >>>>>>> - You do not earn any money from their works >>>>>>> - (You edited their works to some degree) >>>>>>> - (I have never heard of Valve having any complaints about this, as >> long >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the above is true, despite the EULA probably saying otherwise) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, whether it's legal or advised to extract and ship the contents >> of >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> GCF file, the perfectly safe but annoying way of doing it is mounting >> the >>>>>>> CSS GCF file, but the way you do it is up to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Yaakov Smith" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: "'Discussion of Half-Life Programming'" >>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:09 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [hlcoders] Game Content >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Example: I want to mess with CS:S models and include modifications >> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> said models in my mod. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Could I legally do that, but mount the CS:S content to cover the >> legal >>>>>>>> aspect? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >
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