> > b) Do any of the Source game packs that allow you to play a mod made > with the SDK *not* include CSS these days? >
Orange Box doesn't, nor does L4D ;) 2009/5/14 Jed <[email protected]> > Yeah but... > > a) You need another Source game to be able to play the mod anyway so > Valve are getting a sale right here. > b) Do any of the Source game packs that allow you to play a mod made > with the SDK *not* include CSS these days? > > I'd say that maybe 85% of the time someone with the relevant "base" > games to play your mod probably has CSS installed anyway. If you want > to use CSS content in an unmodified form, then yes, just mount the GCF > and make it a requirement for the mod. If you're making derived model > then it will be necessary to ship with your mod. > > I think as well you have to think a bit beyond "he stole my bike!" - > stopping this kind of derivative work stifles innovation and puts > people off modding. I'd say at least 75% of the mods I've seen out > there use modified content from other Source games in one form or > another. As it's being used for a Source game, your in a way "keeping > it in the family" and there's also the follow on of tying a playing to > Steam, exposure to other games and maybe leading to more sales. Also > don't forget that games like CSS, DoDS and TF2 all started out as > mods. It's not in Valves interest to stifle this kind of derivative > work - especially when its non-profit and could potentially lead them > to their next-big-hit. > > As I said, I think Valve "get" this and are forward thinking enough to > see that this sort of incestuous breeding of content across their > games is actually a good thing. > > - Jed > > > 2009/5/14 Julian Moschüring <[email protected]>: > > I agree, but your second point implies that you mount, in this case, the > > CS:S content, which was the question which started this thread. :-) > > Perhaps one of the main reason someone plays your mod is that the models > > are so great. If you don't mount the CS:S content you would take money > > from valve because if you had mounted it some people would have bought > > CS:S to play your mod... mmh > > > > I would mount the content and publish the mod with the model. You could > > also check if the content is mountable and if not use some standard > > model instead of the CS:S ones. > > > > Jed schrieb: > >> I think the great questions are: > >> > >> Is it hurting them? > >> Is it worth them taking legal action? > >> > >> As has been pointed out, if you are just borrowing a few low-key (i.e > >> not character/player) models such as props you're not really giving > >> away the whole CSS game nor are you really damaging sales. > >> > >> Secondly, if borrowing a few models helps you get your free mod out > >> the door, it might well prompt a player to purchase say the Orange Box > >> to be able to play your mod - $$$ for Valve. > >> > >> Thirdly, the legal costs of taking any modder to task for borrowing a > >> few props for his Source mod is going to be far in excess of their > >> market value. > >> > >> >From my experience of dealing with Valve first hand I like to think > >> their a level headed bunch of chaps and their attitude is that if > >> you're not "taking the piss" with borrowed/reworked content or using > >> it outside of a Source mod then it's acceptable. Of course that's my > >> opinion and not fact. > >> > >> Then again I think it's a sad reflection on the litigious society of > >> today if a few modders would be stomped on from trying to learn and > >> innovate for fear of legal repercussion. > >> > >> - Jed > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 2009/5/14 Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen <[email protected]>: > >> > >>> Technically, you are not stealing from Valve by making a copy of their > >>> works, if they don't lose anything, which the clause that you only use > a > >>> small portion of their content includes, because the content cannot > >>> substitute CS:S, and then it won't affect their sales, thus it can > quality > >>> as Fair Use under the US Copyright laws. But it's still untested in > court, > >>> and will vary on a case basis, and I am not an US copyright expert. The > same > >>> argument goes for editing the content. Again, note that I don't > recommend > >>> doing this, but if it's legal due to Fair Use, and you only use small > >>> amounts of content, it will be much faster for the mod to load the > content > >>> from its own folder, instead of adding another search path, which > increases > >>> loadtimes. > >>> > >>> Oh and be careful when mounting .GCFs from code and not the > gameinfo.txt, I > >>> had some experience that some people couldn't launch the mod > successfully, > >>> even if they had the .GCF I was mounting. Might be fixed though, but > still. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Julian Moschüring" <[email protected]> > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > [email protected]> > >>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 2:57 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Game Content > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> "-You only included small amounts of Valve's copyrighted works" > >>>> Nice reasoning, so if I go into a shop and only steal eg a part of a > >>>> computer thats okay? :-) > >>>> > >>>> I think you should mount the CS:S content because you have to make > sure > >>>> the users who use your mod own the right to have the models you > provide. > >>>> Legally you are not even allowed to ship the modified model. To do it > >>>> totally right you would have to extract the gcf during install and > modify > >>>> the original model... but, as Jonas said, I don't think valve will > >>>> complain about this. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Jonas 'Sortie' Termansen schrieb: > >>>> > >>>>> My personal expierence is that you can use CS:S Content in your mod. > The > >>>>> 100% legal way is to mount CS:S content but that requires CS:S to be > >>>>> installed and owned by everyone who own your mod. Then if you modify > a > >>>>> few > >>>>> models, you can simply make some replacements in your own mod folder > that > >>>>> will override the CS:S content. > >>>>> > >>>>> If you want a more questionable method that allows everyone to play > your > >>>>> mod > >>>>> (and faster because you don't have to mount another .gcf file or > two), > >>>>> you > >>>>> can simply extract the few models you wish to edit and their > materials, > >>>>> and > >>>>> put them in your mod's folder. This way you don't depend on any extra > >>>>> .gcf > >>>>> files or that people have CS:S installed. This should work fine for > small > >>>>> amounts of content. While untested in court, it could qualify for > Fair > >>>>> Use > >>>>> because: > >>>>> - You only included small amounts of Valve's copyrighted works > >>>>> - The content required at least one of Valve's products > >>>>> - The content used doesn't include the whole CS:S and doesn't limit > >>>>> Valve's > >>>>> sales, because the content isn't CS:S > >>>>> - You do not earn any money from their works > >>>>> - (You edited their works to some degree) > >>>>> - (I have never heard of Valve having any complaints about this, as > long > >>>>> as > >>>>> the above is true, despite the EULA probably saying otherwise) > >>>>> > >>>>> Again, whether it's legal or advised to extract and ship the contents > of > >>>>> a > >>>>> GCF file, the perfectly safe but annoying way of doing it is mounting > the > >>>>> CSS GCF file, but the way you do it is up to you. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Yaakov Smith" <[email protected]> > >>>>> To: "'Discussion of Half-Life Programming'" > >>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:09 PM > >>>>> Subject: [hlcoders] Game Content > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Example: I want to mess with CS:S models and include modifications > of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> said models in my mod. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Could I legally do that, but mount the CS:S content to cover the > legal > >>>>>> aspect? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >>>>>> please visit: > >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >>>>> please visit: > >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >>>> please visit: > >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
