I think that in many of the Shamanistic traditions, the Shamans themselves don't use drugs as a rule, but more often guide their "patients" in their journey as they use the drugs. Shamans live their lives in the meditative practices that are required to reach the states needed for healing, soul retrieval etc - the role of the Shaman. But the other members of the tribe don't, so in order to journey with the Shaman, they are the ones to use the drug while the Shaman accompanies them on their journey and guides them there and back. The drugs do, as Huxley said, open the doors of perception and allow the unseen to become seen. The Shaman has seen it all before, so he guides them through the door to find their own answers.
On Mar 24, 1:29 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > I even saw the sawing gestures you made, Chris, ! > > On Mar 24, 10:10 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Congratulations, you're a stoic. You're in good company...Marcus > > Aurelius would agree with you completely. And yes, if someone saws > > your leg off without anesthetic, you will most certainly see God. > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Get rid of it all. We're all a bunch of pansies. We need to go back > > > to the days when they pulled teeth with pliars. Thats when men were > > > MEN. :) > > > > On Mar 23, 7:22 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> What about anesthesia for dental procedures, or surgery? > > > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > > >> > Chris, > > >> > I'm very unsympathetic to the marijuana apologists arguments. Their > > >> > arguments always appeal to weakness. I'm of the philosophy that the > > >> > only good arguments are the arguments that appeal to a position of > > >> > strength. If you want a spiritual experience, why do it the easy > > >> > way? Its good for the soul to have to work for something like that. > > >> > And why would you want drugs to relieve you from pain? Pain is good > > >> > for the soul as well. And if you don't stand in the position of > > >> > defending drugs from the argument of absence from pain, or abundance > > >> > of pleasure, then what argument do you have? > > >> > So in sum, I disagree with the aims of drug use. (i.e. avoidance of > > >> > pain, excess of pleasure) And even if I agreed with the aims, drugs > > >> > don't sufficiently accomplish those aims. They end up doing more harm > > >> > than good. > > > >> > On Mar 23, 1:50 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> I understand. I thought you were making a judgement of the tribe > > >> >> itself. The New Age movement is particularly American, and for the > > >> >> most part, abstains from the chemical roots of the religions that it > > >> >> borrows many of its philosophies from. It's an interesting > > >> >> contradiction to your accurate observation. > > > >> >> [ Attached Message ]From:Kierkecraig > > >> >> <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > > >> >> <[email protected]>Date:Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:13:11 -0700 > > >> >> (PDT)Local:Mon, Mar 23 2009 1:13 pmSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Speaking > > >> >> of Out of Body Experiences... > > > >> >> Chris, > > >> >> What I meant by perfect fit for modern america is that we are always > > >> >> looking for a quick fix. We Americans don't like to put forth > > >> >> effort. I did not mean that physchodelic drugs are not ancient. > > > >> >> On Mar 22, 9:43 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > Ayahuasca tea, along with the ritual use of amanita muscaria, is > > >> >> > not a > > >> >> > modern american ritual at all. These are South American immigrants, > > >> >> > Craig. Did you not read the article? This is a religion that has > > >> >> > archaeological evidence dating it at least as old as Christianity, > > >> >> > perhaps two to three times as old as that. > > > >> >> > Nothing modern at all about the use of psycho-actives. If anything, > > >> >> > it's a modern idea that you can achieve a "spiritual state" without > > >> >> > them. > > > >> >> > On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Kierkecraig > > >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > Maybe if you aren't willing to put forth the effort, then you > > >> >> > > don't > > >> >> > > deserve the experience. Sounds like these hallucinogens are a > > >> >> > > spiritual experience for the lazy. A perfect fit for modern > > >> >> > > america I > > >> >> > > guess. > > > >> >> > > On Mar 22, 7:10 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > >> >> > > wrote: > > >> >> > >> I would posit that there are few people anymore who practice the > > >> >> > >> rituals to the degree necessary to self manufacture the amounts > > >> >> > >> of DMT necessary to have the "religious experience". Buddhist > > >> >> > >> monks, perhaps, and some extreme branches of Catholicism who > > >> >> > >> still practice flagellation. For the rest of us, a legitimately > > >> >> > >> altered state of reality is not likely to occur without > > >> >> > >> assistance. > > > >> >> > >> [ Attached Message ]From:Slip Disc <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds > > >> >> > >> Eye\"" <[email protected]>Date:Sun, 22 Mar 2009 > > >> >> > >> 16:07:12 -0700 (PDT)Local:Sun, Mar 22 2009 > > >> >> > >> 5:07 pmSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Speaking of Out of Body > > >> >> > >> Experiences... > > > >> >> > >> I guess I'm going to have to take another look at the DMT you > > >> >> > >> tossed > > >> >> > >> at me on another occasion, you see Chris, I didn't forget! > > > >> >> > >> I'm glad that people can have the liberty to practice their > > >> >> > >> faith in > > >> >> > >> the way they see fit without interference from big brother. > > > >> >> > >> The question is, though, why do religions need to use > > >> >> > >> hallucinogens if > > >> >> > >> there is sufficiency in their spiritual beliefs? > > > >> >> > >> Just a thought. > > > >> >> > >> On Mar 22, 12:28 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > >> >> > >> wrote:> A Judge in Oregon has ruled that the use of Amazonian > > >> >> > >> plants for the > > >> >> > >> > purpose of legitimate religious hallucinogenic experience is > > >> >> > >> > legal: > > > >> >> > >> >http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OR_HALLUCINOGENIC_TEA_OROL-?SI... > > > >> >> > >> > The active ingredient for the "Spirit Walk"? DMT.- Hide quoted > > >> >> > >> > text - > > > >> >> > - Show quoted text - > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
