Pruning ain't the metaphor I'd choose Chris. Dexia Bank has just gone belly-up - it was 'worth' more than Belgium's GDP. The 'money' in the banking scam is at factors of ten in comparison with the world of real work. My view is that it's in the way of capitalism and democracy. The informed guess is they've been lending to crooks on a scale vastly bigger than the barrel-loads of dollars gone in Iraq and Afghanistan without securing any 'mineral rights'. The kleft stick is that they can only make money through the same old scams, so whatever we put back in (and I mean we) just does it all over again. In an oversimplified way, much of the debt is like you owing me $2 million, Don owing 'Francois' $5 million, me owing Molly (etc.) in an equation in which, if we cancelled out we're all solvent and I owe Orn a beer he won'r drink. What goes in the cancelling is the banks - the debts are so networked it's almost like the $2 million you owe me is balanced by $1.99 million I owe to people who owe you. I've been teaching the EU figures if anyone is interested (they just tell this story between EU countries).
We've finally seen some reporting here. A Wall Street guy came on and said he was amazed more people weren't protesting as he thought true unemployment was at 15% - which is what I reckon here. The real issue to me is jobs and wages. A key figure for me is that the bottom 50% back in 1980 had 14% of liquid assets (cash more or less) and that's down to 1% now. Wages have fallen. The debt problem starts around 1965 and it's similar in form to similar ones around gold rushes in history. Most people I've seen on television or met in Manchester don't know much of the economics but are sick of the lack of opportunity. I was left a house when my cousin died and had to drop the price by a fifth to sell. There's no decent unskilled or engineering work around here and jobs are being lost at some rate. Just up the road we have 64 years of UK energy supply as shale gas about to be exploited. I worked on the survey 25 years back. You'd think we'd have a plan around this but there isn't one. Political blather is just about getting the economy moving, our people working. It's all dross. Interestingly, our Republicans couldn't even fill the seats for the Prime Minister's speech. He's not a half- wit like Palin but he's claiming his government has dealt with the banks - yet two of the one's we bailed out are still making the kinds of losses they were before 2008. One of them,HBOS, was running a criminal scam that closed many small companies and is not cooperating with the limited police enquiries. I don't think most people know how bad it all is yet. The collapse of Soc. Gen. and Bank of America should do it - B o A could even end up Chinese. There are underlying questions on how we get fed if it all collapses - after all, we're still growing the food. On Oct 5, 9:43 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > Great time to live,, revolution is always exciting. Maybe if the bankers > and stock market wake up. > > Do corporations still agree obey the laws of the state and the United > state.. and if they don't do they lose their corporate skirt > Allan > On Oct 5, 2011 7:37 PM, "Chris Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Citizens United was one of the worst rulings in the entire history of the > > Supreme Court. > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Comm... > > > Restricting unions while empowering corporations in political speech is one > > of the root problems that Occupy hopes to address. > > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:17 PM, ornamentalmind <[email protected] > > > wrote: > > >> It looks like the unions are entering into the fray. No doubt this > >> will accelerate the attacks on them… such as the proposals to greatly > >> limit and/or not allow political contributions. Perhaps if they > >> incorporated…. > > >>http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/5/as_unions_students_join_occupy_... > > >> On Oct 5, 8:02 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > And thus the need for education. CDO Swaps and other bits of banking > >> > nastiness that prune money from the system while contributing nothing to > >> it > >> > are part of the problem. > > >> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 7:35 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > We have Occupy here too - a few tent cities so far - people also > >> > > making the point they ain't left-wing loonies. I went to the > >> > > Manchester one yesterday to ask a few people 'why'? I'm not sure > >> > > heard much that was accurate. Might have a look at Greece nearer > >> > > Xmas. Most peopleI met yesterday didn't know what collateral- > >> > > derivative fractional banking was. > > >> > > On Oct 4, 2:40 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > Well then, reckon we should all grab shovels, yes? > >> > > > On Oct 4, 2011 9:03 AM, "archytas" <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > I guess my picture of normal, Chris, would be of an ostrich with > >> its > >> > > > > head in the sand - these being the people not doing occupation. > > >> > > > > On Oct 4, 8:41 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > >> It is good to see you again Chris and Don.. > > >> > > > >> I was thinking (I know a rare event) last night only to have the > >> topic > >> > > > >> return this morning.. > > >> > > > >> After watching all the demonstrations some thing emerged that > >> does not > >> > > > make > >> > > > >> sense to me nor do I understand. maybe some one can straighten me > >> > > out.. > > >> > > > >> He goes: If I invest my money in a company say Sky Cat (I like > >> the > >> > > idea) > >> > > > I > >> > > > >> am hoping the company will go on to produce me a profit by > >> > > manufacturing > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> air type craft. They have my money, I have a share of their > >> company > >> > > > >> because they control my money.. > > >> > > > >> Now if I give a "Bank" control of my money they do not in return > >> give > >> > > me > >> > > > a > >> > > > >> share of their stock like a normal company does.. they invest > >> both > >> > > their > >> > > > >> money and my money and I have no problem with that,, what I have > >> a > >> > > > problem > >> > > > >> with is the sharing of the profits.. if there is a profit their > >> share > >> > > of > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> money makes more money than mine,, but if they lose money It > >> is my > >> > > > money > >> > > > >> that is lost not theirs.. > > >> > > > >> Even if I put money in a simple savings account,, it is > >> investing in > >> > > the > >> > > > >> bank.. and what I am seeing is a group if people who think the > >> laws > >> > > of > >> > > > >> economics and moral responsibility. If they lose money,, because > >> they > >> > > are > >> > > > >> the ones in control morally they should be taking the greater > >> share of > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> lose.. and that includes the stock market.. > >> > > > >> Allan > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Chris Jenkins < > >> > > [email protected] > >> > > > >wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Leaving moderation behind has made it feel like a whole new > >> list for > >> > > > me. :D > > >> > > > >> > I too am worried about undue influence coopting the cause, but > >> I > >> > > think > >> > > > >> > that's an inevitability of any populist movement. Even the > >> Egyptians > >> > > > are > >> > > > >> > warily eyeing their "liberated" government. I just hope some > >> good is > >> > > > >> > accomplished along the way. > >> > > > >> > On Oct 3, 2011 7:15 PM, "Don Johnson" <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I'm very glad to see your august presence back amongst these > >> > > humble > >> > > > >> > boards > >> > > > >> > > Chris. > > >> > > > >> > > The self portraits of 99%s with notes describing themselves > >> > > affected > >> > > > me > >> > > > >> > > somewhat. Some are easy to dismiss as whiny but many are > >> obviously > >> > > > >> > feeling > >> > > > >> > > the same pain I see in family and friends around me. It > >> literally > >> > > > puts a > >> > > > >> > > face, many faces actually, on our problems. I'm very glad > >> folks > >> > > like > >> > > > you > >> > > > >> > are > >> > > > >> > > out there recording these times. I mean that because I see in > >> you > >> > > > someone > >> > > > >> > > without a particular agenda other then improvement. I have > >> never > >> > > seen > >> > > > you > >> > > > >> > as > >> > > > >> > > someone that ignores or tries to cover up obvious > >> discrepancies in > >> > > > what > >> > > > >> > > politicians say and what they do. I find your support of Ron > >> Paul > >> > > > >> > > refreshing. While I disagree with many of his policies the > >> thing I > >> > > > most > >> > > > >> > > admire about him is his consistency. There are few things our > >> > > > President > >> > > > >> > has > >> > > > >> > > done I approve of but killing terrorists is at the top of the > >> > > list. > >> > > > Ron > >> > > > >> > is > >> > > > >> > > wrong on this. > > >> > > > >> > > Now, with the ass kissing portion of my post out of the way, > >> let's > >> > > > get to > >> > > > >> > > the Occupy(pickyourplace) kerfuffle. I made the observation > >> in a > >> > > post > >> > > > on > >> > > > >> > G+ > >> > > > >> > > that this may be one of those times when you see Tea Partiers > >> > > > marching > >> > > > >> > next > >> > > > >> > > to Code Pinkers. Nobody likes corp. welfare and high > >> unemployment > >> > > > except > >> > > > >> > for > >> > > > >> > > the lobbyists and politicians that engineer it. Even they > >> don't > >> > > like > >> > > > it > >> > > > >> > when > >> > > > >> > > they get caught. On the one hand I'm glad folks are "doing > >> > > something" > >> > > > but > >> > > > >> > on > >> > > > >> > > the other I'm concerned with what seems to be unions trying > >> to > >> > > > highjack > >> > > > >> > the > >> > > > >> > > movement for their own selfish ends. They are some of the > >> biggest > >> > > > causes > >> > > > >> > of > >> > > > >> > > our current crisis. Just read s story how GM has thousands of > >> > > Volts > >> > > > >> > sitting > >> > > > >> > > around not getting sold. This is what happens when government > >> > > builds > >> > > > your > >> > > > >> > > cars or your solar panels. Somebody else always makes them > >> better > >> > > AND > >> > > > >> > > cheaper. My concern is most of those 'protesting' don't see > >> things > >> > > > quite > >> > > > >> > the > >> > > > >> > > same way I do. Far too many are on the Class Warfare path and > >> this > >> > > > >> > disturbs > >> > > > >> > > me. I have no beef with the rich. In fact, I appreciate that > >> they > >> > > pay > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> > > most and give the most. I hate favoritism and that is what > >> > > government > >> > > > >> > > control and the punish/reward aspect of taxation is all > >> about. I > >> > > hate > >> > > > it. > >> > > > >> > > It's why I like Herman Cain's 'plan' of 9-9-9 better then > >> anything > >> > > > else > >> > > > >> > > anybody has come up with. Getting rid of ALL the loopholes > >> for the > >> > > > very > >> > > > >> > > wealthy would be awesome. It's galling to find out some of > >> the > >> > > most > >> > > > >> > ardent > >> > > > >> > > celebrity liberal supporters have much of their wealth > >> sheltered > >> > > from > >> > > > >> > taxes. > >> > > > >> > > Smart but hugely hypocritical. That said the rich aren't the > >> > > problem, > >> > > > our > >> > > > >> > > screwy tax laws and a political class bent on pork and back > >> > > > scratching > >> > > > >> > and > >> > > > >> > > huge, mind numbing waste are. I agree we need to clean house > >> in > >> > > > >> > Washington > >> > > > >> > > but I fear most of those in the streets would disagree with > >> me who > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> > major > >> > > > >> > > culprits are. > > >> > > > >> > > As usual, Rigs makes the most sense of all the comments here. > >> > > While > >> > > > I'm > >> > > > >> > not > >> > > > >> > > a supporter of the status quo exactly I do have a substantial > >> > > amount > >> > > > of > >> > > > >> > my > >> > > > >> > > retirement in the market and T-bills. The required > >> destruction of > >> > > our > >> > > > >> > > current system to come up with something more to Archy's > >> taste I'm > >> > > > scared > >> > > > >> > to > >> > > > >> > > death of. That's what crazy people like George Soros want. > >> That's > >> > > not > >> > > > for > >> > > > >> > > me. A more vigilant FTC and massive simplification of the tax > >> code > >> > > I > >> > > > >> > would > >> > > > >> > > welcome. > > >> > > > >> > > Thems my thoughts but I'm keeping an open mind. > > >> > > > >> > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:42 PM, gabbydott < > >> [email protected]> > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > >> Ok, let's settle for rule #10! :) > > >> > > > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Chris Jenkins < > >> > > > >> > [email protected]>wrote: > > >> > > > >> > >>> Fantastic link, Gabby! I especially like number 10. :D > > >> > > > >> > >>> No, by normalcy, I meant that the media focus to date has > >> been > >> > > on > >> > > > the > >> > > > >> > >>> counterculture types mostly, while > > ... > > read more »
