I scanned it and agree, a bit bullshitty but one must admire the hopeful tone the writer emits. So the Occupiers are all about coming together if not completely cogent on their reasons for doing so. Where the Tea Party, to me, has mostly been about tax and spending cuts Tthe Occupiers seem, again to me(it's a shame it's still so unclear) to be all about political corporate favoritism. I would hesitate to label the 99%ers as Class Warriors although many of their organizers seem to have this at the top of their agenda.
I'm disappointed in the rhetoric from Conservative mouthpieces like Limbaugh that are trashing the movement. Ridiculing the protestors and so forth. It would make more sense to recognize that there are those that are having some tough times and try to help educate those disaffected folks on the real problems which isn't rich people per se. It's bad government. By both Republicans and Democrats. In a nutshell, too much wasteful spending and not enough pin-pointed economic stimulus spending. Thanks for the link to the Boston Group Arch I'll probably read it again soon. These economist make sense but the real problem is going to be coming up with something everyone can swallow. We sure don't need our very own Reign Of Terror. Nobody wants to give in here. If I was rich I'd be tired of being called the bad guy all the time unless I really was the bad guy in which case I wouldn't care a fig. I'd take my loot and go somewhere else. God help us all. dj On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:02 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > There's a take on Occupy Wall Street at > > http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/matt-stoller-the-anti-politics-of-occupywallstreet.html > - that sounds like Allan - a bit bullshitty (sorry Al - not you) Chris > but an interesting take. > > I can't stand any standard politics now. It's madness. > > On Oct 6, 8:36 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think there is where the problem lies,, several decades ago the > > revolution was bassed off ideology differences (the Little Red Book) > this > > really was not a valid reason.. > > > > today I see > http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/matt-stoller-the-anti-politics-of-occupywallstreet.htmlatotally > different world,, especially in the US also to a > > lesser extent Europe.. in the US there are other problems there are > > existing undergrounds outside of police intelligence,, there are massive > > amounts of weapons out of site and out of mind and other than the owner > no > > one knows about them.. Even I still have guns and I no longer live > there.. > > > > The US is extremely Large,, there is also a large community of motor > homes > > which have the ability move and potentially lower the cost of living.. > > and organize.. the police are not unsympathetic either as they often > times > > in the same or similar situation.. > > > > I do believe co-op-s will become more plentiful, underground work will > > become more prevalent.. it will change,, I think the start is in > > eliminating the political corruption that is so embedded.. > > sigh > > Allan > > > > I hate change .. but greed is so wide spread.. a tremendous lose > > of spirituality ,, but fundamentalism may have some perks in the end,, > > > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Chris Jenkins < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see BoA as an infinitely powerful entity, and can't imagine the > behemoth > > > falling. > > > On Oct 5, 2011 10:18 PM, "archytas" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Pruning ain't the metaphor I'd choose Chris. Dexia Bank has just gone > > > > belly-up - it was 'worth' more than Belgium's GDP. The 'money' in the > > > > banking scam is at factors of ten in comparison with the world of > real > > > > work. My view is that it's in the way of capitalism and democracy. > > > > The informed guess is they've been lending to crooks on a scale > vastly > > > > bigger than the barrel-loads of dollars gone in Iraq and Afghanistan > > > > without securing any 'mineral rights'. The kleft stick is that they > > > > can only make money through the same old scams, so whatever we put > > > > back in (and I mean we) just does it all over again. In an > > > > oversimplified way, much of the debt is like you owing me $2 million, > > > > Don owing 'Francois' $5 million, me owing Molly (etc.) in an equation > > > > in which, if we cancelled out we're all solvent and I owe Orn a beer > > > > he won'r drink. What goes in the cancelling is the banks - the debts > > > > are so networked it's almost like the $2 million you owe me is > > > > balanced by $1.99 million I owe to people who owe you. I've been > > > > teaching the EU figures if anyone is interested (they just tell this > > > > story between EU countries). > > > > > > We've finally seen some reporting here. A Wall Street guy came on and > > > > said he was amazed more people weren't protesting as he thought true > > > > unemployment was at 15% - which is what I reckon here. The real issue > > > > to me is jobs and wages. A key figure for me is that the bottom 50% > > > > back in 1980 had 14% of liquid assets (cash more or less) and that's > > > > down to 1% now. Wages have fallen. The debt problem starts around > > > > 1965 and it's similar in form to similar ones around gold rushes in > > > > history. Most people I've seen on television or met in Manchester > > > > don't know much of the economics but are sick of the lack of > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > I was left a house when my cousin died and had to drop the price by a > > > > fifth to sell. There's no decent unskilled or engineering work around > > > > here and jobs are being lost at some rate. Just up the road we have > > > > 64 years of UK energy supply as shale gas about to be exploited. I > > > > worked on the survey 25 years back. You'd think we'd have a plan > > > > around this but there isn't one. > > > > > > Political blather is just about getting the economy moving, our > people > > > > working. It's all dross. Interestingly, our Republicans couldn't > > > > even fill the seats for the Prime Minister's speech. He's not a half- > > > > wit like Palin but he's claiming his government has dealt with the > > > > banks - yet two of the one's we bailed out are still making the kinds > > > > of losses they were before 2008. One of them,HBOS, was running a > > > > criminal scam that closed many small companies and is not cooperating > > > > with the limited police enquiries. > > > > > > I don't think most people know how bad it all is yet. The collapse of > > > > Soc. Gen. and Bank of America should do it - B o A could even end up > > > > Chinese. There are underlying questions on how we get fed if it all > > > > collapses - after all, we're still growing the food. > > > > > > On Oct 5, 9:43 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Great time to live,, revolution is always exciting. Maybe if the > > > bankers > > > >> and stock market wake up. > > > > > >> Do corporations still agree obey the laws of the state and the > United > > > >> state.. and if they don't do they lose their corporate skirt > > > >> Allan > > > >> On Oct 5, 2011 7:37 PM, "Chris Jenkins" < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > Citizens United was one of the worst rulings in the entire history > of > > > the > > > >> > Supreme Court. > > > > > >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Comm. > > > .. > > > > > >> > Restricting unions while empowering corporations in political > speech > > > is one > > > >> > of the root problems that Occupy hopes to address. > > > > > >> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:17 PM, ornamentalmind < > > > [email protected] > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > >> >> It looks like the unions are entering into the fray. No doubt > this > > > >> >> will accelerate the attacks on them… such as the proposals to > greatly > > > >> >> limit and/or not allow political contributions. Perhaps if they > > > >> >> incorporated…. > > > > >http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/5/as_unions_students_join_occupy_. > .. > > > > > >> >> On Oct 5, 8:02 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> >> > And thus the need for education. CDO Swaps and other bits of > > > banking > > > >> >> > nastiness that prune money from the system while contributing > > > nothing to > > > >> >> it > > > >> >> > are part of the problem. > > > > > >> >> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 7:35 PM, archytas <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > >> >> > > We have Occupy here too - a few tent cities so far - people > also > > > >> >> > > making the point they ain't left-wing loonies. I went to the > > > >> >> > > Manchester one yesterday to ask a few people 'why'? I'm not > sure > > > >> >> > > heard much that was accurate. Might have a look at Greece > nearer > > > >> >> > > Xmas. Most peopleI met yesterday didn't know what > collateral- > > > >> >> > > derivative fractional banking was. > > > > > >> >> > > On Oct 4, 2:40 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected] > > > > > wrote: > > > >> >> > > > Well then, reckon we should all grab shovels, yes? > > > >> >> > > > On Oct 4, 2011 9:03 AM, "archytas" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > I guess my picture of normal, Chris, would be of an > ostrich > > > with > > > >> >> its > > > >> >> > > > > head in the sand - these being the people not doing > > > occupation. > > > > > >> >> > > > > On Oct 4, 8:41 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> It is good to see you again Chris and Don.. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> I was thinking (I know a rare event) last night only to > have > > > the > > > >> >> topic > > > >> >> > > > >> return this morning.. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> After watching all the demonstrations some thing emerged > > > that > > > >> >> does not > > > >> >> > > > make > > > >> >> > > > >> sense to me nor do I understand. maybe some one can > > > straighten me > > > >> >> > > out.. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> He goes: If I invest my money in a company say Sky Cat > (I > > > like > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> > > idea) > > > >> >> > > > I > > > >> >> > > > >> am hoping the company will go on to produce me a profit > by > > > >> >> > > manufacturing > > > >> >> > > > the > > > >> >> > > > >> air type craft. They have my money, I have a share of > their > > > >> >> company > > > >> >> > > > >> because they control my money.. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> Now if I give a "Bank" control of my money they do not > in > > > return > > > >> >> give > > > >> >> > > me > > > >> >> > > > a > > > >> >> > > > >> share of their stock like a normal company does.. they > > > invest > > > >> >> both > > > >> >> > > their > > > >> >> > > > >> money and my money and I have no problem with that,, > what I > > > have > > > >> >> a > > > >> >> > > > problem > > > >> >> > > > >> with is the sharing of the profits.. if there is a > profit > > > their > > > >> >> share > > > >> >> > > of > > > >> >> > > > the > > > >> >> > > > >> money makes more money than mine,, but if they lose > money > > > It > > > >> >> is my > > > >> >> > > > money > > > >> >> > > > >> that is lost not theirs.. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> Even if I put money in a simple savings account,, it is > > > >> >> investing in > > > >> >> > > the > > > >> >> > > > >> bank.. and what I am seeing is a group if people who > think > > > the > > > >> >> laws > > > >> >> > > of > > > >> >> > > > >> economics and moral responsibility. If they lose money,, > > > because > > > >> >> they > > > >> >> > > are > > > >> >> > > > >> the ones in control morally they should be taking the > > > greater > > > >> >> share of > > > >> >> > > > the > > > >> >> > > > >> lose.. and that includes the stock market.. > > > >> >> > > > >> Allan > > > > > >> >> > > > >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Chris Jenkins < > > > >> >> > > [email protected] > > > >> >> > > > >wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > Leaving moderation behind has made it feel like a > whole > > > new > > > >> >> list for > > > >> >> > > > me. :D > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > I too am worried about undue influence coopting the > cause, > > > but > > > >> >> I > > > >> >> > > think > > > >> >> > > > >> > that's an inevitability of any populist movement. Even > the > > > >> >> Egyptians > > > >> >> > > > are > > > >> >> > > > >> > warily eyeing their "liberated" government. I just > hope > > > some > > > >> >> good is > > > >> >> > > > >> > accomplished along the way. > > > >> >> > > > >> > On Oct 3, 2011 7:15 PM, "Don Johnson" < > [email protected]> > > > >> >> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> > > I'm very glad to see your august presence back > amongst > > > these > > > >> >> > > humble > > > >> >> > > > >> > boards > > > >> >> > > > >> > > Chris. > > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > The self portraits of 99%s with notes describing > > > themselves > > > > ... > > > > read more »
