> [SA previously]
> Where does the MOQ state s and o is separated
> from value?
[Ron added]
> FROM WIKI
> (a seemingly debateable source)
> However it re-affirms my position.
> [edit] Quality
> "Quality", or "value" as described by Pirsig, cannot
> be defined because
> it empirically precedes any intellectual
> constructions. It is the
> "knife-edge" of experience, known to all. "What
> distinguishes good and
> bad writing? Do we need to ask this question of
> Lysias or anyone else
> who ever did write anything?" (Plato's Phaedrus,
> 258d). Likening it with
> the Tao, Pirsig believes that Quality is the
> fundamental force in the
> universe stimulating everything from atoms to
> animals to evolve and
> incorporate ever greater levels of Quality.
> According to the MOQ,
> everything (including mind, ideas and matter) is a
> product and a result
> of Quality.
What does this Wikipedia excerpt have to do with
s/o and the MOQ connection?
> [Ron]
> Pirsig places quality before subjects and objects
> correct?
I guess. I've heard this before. I know quality
is before static and dynamic.
[Ron]
> SOM places quality after subjects and objects
> correct?
I don't know.
[Ron]
> Quality may equal value correct?
Quality is value, yes.
[Ron]
> I think Quality is inseperable from subjects and
> objects.
> I think subjects objects and Quality are one.
ok.
[Ron]
> By redefining Quality as static and dynamic, Pirsig
> makes the distinction between static patterns of
> value
> and dynamic quality (which has no definition) which
> equates
> to value. So, when we say static patterns of value
> or
> static Quality we are speaking of the 4 levels of
> reality we experience- inorganic, organic
> (objective)
> and social and intellectual (subjective).
I don't find the Bo explanation to be helpful. I
find it confusing, sorry.
[Ron]
> By placing immediate cutting edge experience
> (dynamic/value)
> before static patterns of value (s/o) he separates
> value from
> subjects and objects correct?
I don't know.
[Ron]
> and makes
> value/quality central
> as the genesis of all things correct?
ok.
[Ron]
> He goes on to say that Quality/Value is betterness
> and that
> the universe is a moral order by this. correct?
ok.
[Ron added]
> [WIKI]
> [edit] Static and Dynamic qualities
> The MOQ divides Quality into two forms: static
> quality patterns
> (patterned) and Dynamic Quality (unpatterned). The
> four patterns of
> static value as well as Dynamic Quality account
> exhaustively for all of
> reality. As the initial (cutting edge) Dynamic
> Quality become
> habituated, it turns into static patterns.
> Pirsig defines static quality as everything that can
> be conceptualized
> or recognized as forming patterns. Pirsig further
> divides static quality
> into inorganic, biological, social and intellectual
> patterns, in
> ascending order of morality.
ok
> [Ron]
> I find it particularly interesting that wiki also
> added this:
> "It is important to note that Pirsig is not
> proposing a duality: Quality
> is one, yet manifests itself differently."
> as if this interpretation of duality could be
> construed if one was not
> careful.
> they are careful to note this and I agree subject
> object and value are
> indeed one.
Yes, one. I just don't understand the need for
subject and object explanation.
[Ron]
> The problem is the double terminology of
> value...value preceeds subjects
> and objects
> yet value subjects and objects are also one. it
> seems contradictory. So
> you see
> SA, there is still this split of sorts if not
> anything is very subtle.
> It could be
> interpreted two ways or both ways so that now there
> are three
> interpretations possible
> if not at all correct which I say reflects in the
> MOQ discuss.
I don't understand, but this seems important.
[Ron]
> am I coming in from the stratosphere now? or am I
> still orbiting jupiter somewhere.
> thanks SA, I feel I'm closer to my dilemma.
You notice which points that I mention I'm not
sure about. Explanation would help. I'm still not
convinced that s and o is necessary to explain
reality, though.
thanks.
SA
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